Action faster than re-action

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by lostway, Sep 3, 2008.

  1. lostway

    lostway New Member

    Watching Sports Science there was an episode showing a Krav Maga practitioner taking a gun from a possible attacker. He was able to move his head to the side and grab the gun before the attacker could pull the trigger and a statement was made that action is faster than re-action.

    Doesn’t it all depend on training? In one of my classes they want speed, speed, speed on the punches and kicks. If you spar then wouldn’t your re-actions become more acute to be able to see and react to a possible attacker’s action?

    And if action is faster, if you are in a situation that looks like a fight is unavoidable, do you go ahead and attack?
     
  2. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Yes, your reactions become fast-er, however for the most part they will still be slower because you are not expecting to be attacked. Most people don't walk around that paranoid.
    Reaction time decreases however when relying on touch instead of sight. The purpose (one of them) behind Chi-Sao in Wing Chun is training this type of sensitivity.


    If the person is in your opinion definitely going to attack you, I would say yes. Attack first, put them down, and put them out. However you'd better be damn sure because when the popo show you're going to have some explaining to do as to why you assaulted that dude.
     
  3. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    That's what we're told to do in the German school of medieval swordsmanship. The reason is simple: To perceive an incoming attack, the information must go from your eyes to your brain, and then you have to come up with a response, and then the signals have to go from your brain to your limbs to be enacted. In striking first, you force the opponent to react on your timeframe, and respond to an attack you get to choose (probably your best one) before your passive opponent gets to do anything. It's simple physics and psychology. Waiting to receive an attack is a surefire way to defeat.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  4. lostway

    lostway New Member

    What about the law point of view concerning fights? At what point are you legally able to attack?

    They approach you rather close, you take a few steps back but they approach you again.

    If they get nose to nose with you and is yelling at you?

    You see him coming directly toward you (not saying a word) but they have that “I am going to hurt you” look? I guess that person would have to have some history of violence.

    I am sure this differs from state to state, country to country.
     
  5. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    General thing to keep in mind is, if it's going to escalate into conflict you'll usually know beforehand, or you won't and it will be sprung on you in which case you won't be preemptively striking.

    My rule is if someone's really acting hostile withing arms reach. Then you can say you were afraid for your life :cool:.

    If you ever let someone get their face nose to nose with yours then you've already lost because they could have already hit you which means if they decide to hurt you you're screwed.
     
  6. windtalker

    windtalker Pleased to return to MAP

    quite often i hear the laws governing self-defense vary considerably depending on where you live. honestly i don't know about state laws outside of ky.

    something i have seen here is both parties getting arrested for getting into a fight reguardless of who started it or who threw a first punch.

    check with your local library or maybe on the internet for local rules about fighting. here in ky. there's a fair ammount of establishing intent mentioned in our books.

    anyway i would have to agree with throwing the first punch being the best decision if you believe a fight is coming.
     
  7. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Again, similar to many sword traditions that use the "bind" (blade on blade contact) to determine what you're opponent is up to. Works like a charm, really.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  8. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Is that the same as the first round of a thai fight? Checking each other out and looking for possible openings and 'tells'?
     
  9. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    I read a performance article about this once, it actually depends how you look at it.

    IF it is a conscious action and reaction the reaction will be slower providing there was no forewarning for the attack. This is because whilst the attack is already being carried out the defender is currently processing the data, making a decision and then carrying it out - many more steps.

    Physiologically the fastest your eyes can take in a new set of data and register it is apparently 80ms aka 0.08 of a second, which considering in target sports, driving and the like a lot has actually happened by the time you have registered it, thus you could end up in a situation where you are always 'one step behind'. This doesn't happen though, why?

    Experience.

    A japanese firm I think it was once hooked up a system to a Honda car and put Honda's top driver in it and recorded how many steering adjustments alone he made. It turned out he made up to 80, yes, 8 - 0, a corner. Considering the shear speed he is going at physiologists said that this is a physical impossibility.

    However they did it again with different systems and they all said the same thing. It then clicked what was happening.
    They put a less advanced driver in the car and naturally found that his lap times were slower and the amount of operations he was carrying out was less.

    I can't explain the ins and outs, but essentially the pro driver was caryring out tasks automatically - because of his experience he already knew how to react and it was already hardwired in his brain, thus you could say reletively speaking that NO conscious thought was involved in what he was doing. He was actually running purely off impulse.

    It is the same in many sports especially target sports - the best are always mentally switched off. They are operating off pure experience - if they were constantly reprocessing info that 0.01mm change between getting a 10 and not would be occuring a lot more often.


    With relation to this case in general the attack will be preplanned already presuming there is time. However if the defender already has a pre-programmed response they will be able to act equally as fast.
    To quote Gene Lbell "I dunno, I get in the ring, my hands move pretty fast then I find myself leaving with another trophy"
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
  10. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    No, not really. It's very fast and is meant to end the fight. When the swords meet, the advantage goes to the better swordsman, since he can react in the bind faster than the other, and can read the opponent's intentions through tactile sensitivity to the pressure exerted by the opponent. It also allows a competent agressor to dominate the opponent in short order by using the degree of pressure used by the opponent against him.

    Now, it CAN be used to feel the guy out for quite some time as long as your point is threatening his face. This can be done either with or without a bind, and is called the Sprechfenster (Speaking Window). When you extend the sword out in front with the point to the opponent's face (in the guard called "Longpoint"), he cannot attack you directly... he must deal with your blade first or be skewered as he moves. So he must use two "fencing times" to attack... one to get past the blade, and one to attack. There are a couple of ways to deal with the Sprechfenster... it is not invicible. The advantage of the Sprechfenster is that you will be able to counter the opponent before he can complete any technique.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     

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