Not charging for training is a great way to make sure you're not whoring the art. When I teach, which is rare, I teach for a beer when we hang out afterwards. On the other hand, we want very experienced and knowledgeable people to continue to teach, so they do have a right to charge for classes. At one time, the experienced people had a monopoly on knowledge. That's not so much the case anymore. That's the problem with teaching. What if they don't care? What if you know they don't care and you also know that no matter what you say they'll keep doing exactly what they're doing? What if you know that if you say something, they'll embrace that asp even tighter out of perversity? I've had this discussion on and off with students, usually intelligent and in their early 20s, where they want to tell me that aikido is the most awesome art or tai chi is the most awesome art because you can vanquish numerous assailants without harming them or breaking a sweat. I used to try to tell them the error of their ways. Now I just say "Whatever." The reason isn't because they're right, it's because by arguing with them, it makes them think that we're just two guys arguing and therefore equal in knowledge, which is not correct.
Not charging for training is a great way to make sure you're not whoring the art. When I teach, which is rare, I teach for a beer when we hang out afterwards. On the other hand, we want very experienced and knowledgeable people to continue to teach, so they do have a right to charge for classes. At one time, the experienced people had a monopoly on knowledge. That's not so much the case anymore. That's the problem with teaching. Hmmmm, you are sound so familiar I teach for food say to speak it is our tradition. We trained for 3-4 hours and then we went out to eat and drink a little. Well a teacher have the responsibiltiy to teach and a student have the responsibility to learn. If both party doing their jobs. It should be no problem. The current problem is very complex, I think? Some teacher pretending to have all the knowledges and experiences but the more you look at them, the more you will find many hole on it. And many students think they can learn in a quick training session, one or two seminar and then looking for more moves or techniques. Traditional teacher knows this very well. Either he pretend not aware and started to give the students more and more knowing that the students will eventually make a fool of themselves. Or the teacher will keep repeating the techniques until he satisfied that the student have it before they are move to the next techniques. I can assure you that the later is very RARE. I've had this discussion on and off with students, usually intelligent and in their early 20s, where they want to tell me that aikido is the most awesome art or tai chi is the most awesome art because you can vanquish numerous assailants without harming them or breaking a sweat. I used to try to tell them the error of their ways. Now I just say "Whatever." The reason isn't because they're right, it's because by arguing with them, it makes them think that we're just two guys arguing and therefore equal in knowledge, which is not correct. There is no wrong or right martial system, it just different! The best thing to do is to compare and contrast it. Let your student attack you and show them how aikijutsu guy would respond, how karate guy would respond and how the silat guy would respond. This way your student understand the different, without judging the negativity of the techniques. Last but not least..... I'm singing now C'mon people now Smile on your brother, everybody get together To try to love one another right now Tristan
Assalamualaikum WW, Mustaq Thank you for sharing. I wish I can be as wise as you in interpreted the hadith. Insya Allah! Sometimes I reflect myself. Why I have survived many life threatning situations. I can easily answer it by telling myself, I'm the luckiest person on earth or Its not my times or God spared my life so I can redeem myself to Allah. As I got older, the later seemed more reasonable. Alhamdullilah. Warm regards, Tristan
Truth, Justice and the American Way ... By that logic, if a guy up and robs a market, then shoots somebody and he doesn't care what society thinks of his actions, we should just shrug it off and let it go? Nope, for me, part of the idea of balance is that when people stand by and do nothing, they run the risk of being railroaded. Our country went to war, even though a lot of folks in it did not want to, me included. Perhaps if more had protested, it might not have happened. Two-thirds of the people in my country do not support this war currently, they believe it was and is a mistake, and yet, we are bogged down in it. If you think standing by and allowing folks to do things that are immoral or illegal is okay, that's your right, of course. If I don't stand up when it's the right thing to do, I don't get to gripe about it. If I don't vote in an election, I have relinquished my right to grumble about the winner of the election. I believe we have certain responsibilities to our society, and one of those is to at least speak our minds. I don't suppose I can begin to cure mankind's ills, but now and then, I can pick a spot and stand there and at least voice what I believe to be true. if people want grab the snake anyhow, they can, but at least I will have made an effort to help. Shrugging it off and saying it won't matter what I say doesn't do it for me.
Ya Tuhan, I'm staying out of this one...I get taught for for free And a Northern UK saying for Y'all...."least said, soonest mended" Mas Taker, I do believe they are the words of Mak Intan?? Do we have another chained tiger in our midst? Hormat GS
Peace to All, Mas Gajah Silat, yes the quote was from Mak Intan, grandmaster of the Silat Harimau Berantai. I just took it from an article in the Seni Beladiri Magazine here in Malaysia, where her successor Jak Othman was telling stories of her. By the way I'm not from the chained tiger style, I just love to have an insight look into other martial arts .
Neither Slander nor Libel Warm salaams to all, A very clear definition, Steve, thank you. If you take an Indonesian word such as 'kacung' and translate it as 'peanut', then someone tells you that the translation should be 'boy-slave' and 'peanut' would be 'kacang', the person who tells you is neither slandering nor libeling you. Or for instance you give a rank 'Pelajarn' to your students, meaning to be using an Indonesian word, and an Indonesian tells you that there is no such word as 'pelajarn' in Bahasa, rather a student is 'pelajar' (or murid, or siswa, or cantrik) and the lesson is a 'pelajaran', the person who tells you is neither commiting slander nor libel. Or if you have a silat certificate signed by the local village beaurocracy and someone points out that is highly unusual, the person who points it out is neither slandering nor libeling you. It is just a fact. Furthermore if the certificate uses words 'Wassalam Warohmatullahi Wabarakatuh' and someone points out that is unusual as usually the words would be 'Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh' the person who points this out is also not commiting slander and neither is (s)he commiting libel. Warm salaams to all, Bram
Error Indeed, they are merely pointing out what they see as a simple mistake, and given as how I made that particular one, I was happy to have somebody (I believe it was you) show it to me. In this case, I asked somebody who spoke the language what it meant, but I mispronounced the word, so the fault was entirely mine. The term was used as an insult, and as it turned out, was even more of an insult than I'd thought ... Live and learn. However: There are words in English that I understand the meaning of, and can use in a written sentence, but that I have never heard spoken aloud, because reading and writing vocabularies are often different than spoken ones. People can also say things aloud that they can't spell when they write them down. I've known people with Ph.D's in English who can't spell very well, and I have misspelled my share of words over the years, not counting typos, and I'm a professional writer. Nobody bats a thousand. It is therefore not unlikely that somebody uneducated or unskilled as a writer who makes out a certificate might make a syntax or spelling error ... I point this out as a possible use of Occam's Razor. I believe that on Elvis Presley's original tombstone, his middle name was misspelled, which gave rise to all kinds of speculation that maybe he wasn't actually buried there. ("Aaron" versus "Aron," I believe. Much easier to believe that the stonecutter just made a mistake than to believe in big conspiracies ...)
Oh my, we have struck a nerve here haven't we. But then the discussion was not about slander and libel, it was about Gheebah and Fitna. The Prophet (saws) gave us this definition Gheebah (backbiting) as I pointed out before; If you don't like the definition you should perhaps take it up with the Prophet (saws). Everyone will of course have to make their own judgment, but to me your behavior in public on this forum and in private to me sure seems to fit this definition in regards to Bill Sanders. (and anyone else who should be so profoundly ignorant as to disagree with anything you say) (but as we say "if the shoe fits..........") One wonders how you, having never met any of the people involved in writing this certificate, have determined that they are "village Bureaucracy" (please note correct spelling)? Perhaps you should look them up and tell them that they don't know what they are doing. But more importantly, if you want to criticize someone else's Arabic, you should at least have the decency to get it correct yourself. Here, let me write it out for you. I left off the diacritical marks because you, being an expert in the Arabic language and all, should know where they go and what they are. You said that this says 'Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh' You will notice that what the Arabic actually says is As-Salaam (Alif-lam-sin-lam-alif-mem) not Wassalam. In other words you started the sentence with "and" rather than "The". Also, don't you think that "Wabarakatuh" would be better rendered into English as "Wa Barakata Hu", since that is actually how it is pronounced? (often with a great deal of stress on the "hu") (what is that other saying? Oh yes "people who live in glass houses......") Ever since you started going after Sanders in this forum (while conveniently overlooking anyone else who might be doing the same things you are criticizing Sanders for) I have wondered why you have attacked him with such venom. So I made inquiries. You know, everyone looses sparring matches dewd, it's no big deal. Do you really want to fill this forum with such bile just because you lost? Here is another bit of Arabic for you (rendered as best I can) Arifa nafsahu Faqad Arifa Rabbahu" (which is usually translated as "He who knows himself knows his Lord" but interestingly, can also be translated as "He who knows his Ego know what rules him"). You should perhaps take that to heart.
who is indulging in fitnah? Assalamualaikum all, Mushtaq, thankyou for the corrections in spelling I really appreciate it. However I was not actually writing about Sanders but you seem to think that I was -talking about hitting a nerve huh? I stopped writing about your mate because Mas Tristan asked me to and I respect him as a silat elder. Just for the record, your mate's certificate from Tari Kolot does say: Wasalam Warohmatuwlahi Wabarakatuh....and seeing those words, Haji Mangipin, a real Cimande teacher in the Naqshbandi mosque in Seven Sisters here in London did laugh and ask 'Lho, [alaikum]-nya mana?' or in English 'Hold on - where is the [alaikum]?' You, Mushtaq, are the one who claims to be an expert in Arabic, not me, my expertise is Indonesian arts and culture. Saying that I am an Arabic expert is certainly a fitnah from your side. It would be enlightening for all if you would explain what happened to the 'alaikum' in the wording of there! You seem to be hinting that I am sore because of losing a sparring match? I have never-ever sparred with any of your people...so just maybe you are propagating fitnah here? Or your sources of information are indulging in fitnah? Warm salaams, Bram.
Quote Mushtaq Ali :One wonders how you, having never met any of the people involved in writing this certificate, have determined that they are "village Bureaucracy" (please note correct spelling)? Perhaps you should look them up and tell them that they don't know what they are doing. Rahayu Mushtaq, people make assumptions based on personal experience that is true. Just as you are passionate about Arabic in it's pure form and the correct spelling in the English language, so too are we passionate about our personal culture. My brother and I are born and bread of the village, and it is an assumption I would make as well. I have already stated in the past that I think its great if a style develops in the west with links to the east etc and is given an appropriate history. Again I make the example of your passion for (I assume Islam Sufi? ) ... if someone was selling an idea that somehow corrupted your understanding or the original concept and culture, particularly if it is insulting to the sensibilities of the culture of origin, you would say something ... as you have demonstrated already. Please note also, that Islam Jawa might be quite a bit different as it absorbs and intertwines with a lot of the old culture ... e.g. Surat Al-Fatikah, which is how I was taught to spell it .. in Jawanese is Surat Kalimosodo ... which is taught that it is the Jimat of Yudisthiro, the eldest brother of the Pandowo Limo. Now I'm sure that Nabi Muhammad (saw) was not even aware of the Pandowo brothers ... which comes from the Baratayudo/Mahabarata. Salam
If we are going to have a conversation you are going to have to be a bit more honest. Do you think that anyone here who has paid attention to this conversation will believe what you just said? If you asked Pak Tristan (who is hopefully away on his honeymoon at the moment) would he have thought you were talking about something else? (BTW since you claim to respect your elders, I am quite a bit older than Tristan) Really? Where? Show me where I have claimed to be an expert in Arabic or anything else. You have never met any of my people at all, or me for that matter, but if you had been paying attention you would know that I am not related to Sander's school at all. The question would be "did you, your friends or students ever spar with any of Sanders' people?" Does the name Gavin ring a bell? Be careful how you answer, there may be video tape for all you know. My advice to you is that if you have agreed to Tristan's request to drop the matter than you do so. There are many other things that can be talked about here that are of actual value. You are not representing your culture or your art in a way that is positive with all this petty bickering. Especially now. This thread had the potential to show Islam in a more positive light than many people here hold it. Your inability to quit bashing Sanders has made that just a bit difficult.
Mushstaq ... you previously mentioned bile ... but you also appear to have some bile in your replies . You seem to be accusing my brother of being a liar about something? To my point of view you began this attack ... if you want to accuse Bram, do it PM ... otherwise my family honour is being attacked here too. That is fitnah (Jawanese usage) too no? BTW An elder in Jawa does not necessarily have to be someone who is older in years. Salam Krisno Pryosusilo
Mushtaq, You were the one to bring Sanders in to this thread. You accussed me of claiming expertise in Arabic while if you check Sanders' site YOU are the definitive expert! However you have not yet explained where the 'alaikum' went in the certificate you gave your expert Arabic opinion on. I have dropped the matter with Sanders ... my problem is now your accussations! As for Gavin, yes I met him twice or three times last year. I still have his number in my phone. We did not ever spar! I did however ask him about his applications and he demonstrated one on me. Now if an application demo is called sparring then we are talking fish and snake stories here. So if you have been led to believe that I am sore because of losing in a spar then you are propagating fitnah about me. I am not sore, I liked the Gavin I met and welcome him or anyone to come and if sparring is what you want then we can of course spar! Gavin himself posts here (or used to) as Cimandesilat... everyone can ask him openly here. Did we spar? No we did not. I ignored this accussation when it came from them (I notice Gavin himself never wrote this here - I suppose it was all from Liam) but now coming from you, an expert in religion and in martial arts (well you teach it don't you?) I feel I should answer, because you present yourself as a Muslim and as a Guru. I respect my elders and Mas Tristan is one of them but you being older than Mas Tristan doesn't make you my elder. I respect you and still answer your posts though you avoids the points I make. The way you jumped into these discussions and began attacking me made me ask around about you too, Mushtaq. For someone who never trusts a fat holy man but claims to be a traceless warrior there is alot about you on the web - pretty darn traceless IMHO. Mushtaq, I won't write here all that I have learned about you, for if I were you, I would be embarrassed and I do not want to embarass you in this forum. I have also read your advertised blog (traceless but advertised I like your irony) and find that in it you do indulge in the very backbiting you say I do! I reffer to your blog where you call your fellow American silat brother, Jeff Davidson, as a punk in a derogatory way. So how am I to believe you when you say you are older than Mas Tristan? Maybe in years but in conduct you seem to me to be a juvenile delinquent! Who are you and what is your silat where did it come from and who is your teacher and why do you attack me for Sanders while ignoring the points that I make? In this thread I was just clarifying that I have not indulged in Fitnah - which you have accussed me of in your expert writting for S' website. It is not fitnah to state the truth. As you are matey-matey with Sanders... please tell him honestly and without malice that there is no word Pelajarn in Bahasa Indonesia, and that Cimande is traditionally seen as being part of the Sundanese Islamic identity, and in that sense, making oaths to a dead Hindu, Indonesian National Hero; Untung Surapati....is blasphemy. This is the truth, not back-bitting, not slander, not libel. Sincerely, Bram.
Bram, in the family tradition I am your elder as well, not just Mas Tris . Take the argument PM please? I have PM-ed Mushtaq to do the same.
Bram .. your PM is full ... Bram, I'm trying to PM you but your quota is full ... please delete some messages?
Bs? Liam, I am sorry that just because Gavin was annoyed with me he stopped posting here. You say ' a long lost opportunity to spar' and I suppose you mean to admit that it has never happened? You are full of BS Liam... I tell the truth. What is the BS you accuse me of? Is it true that you are afraid of MMA Players? Salam silat, Bram.
