Zen in the style names of Mcdojo's

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by kempo-kid, Jul 17, 2004.

  1. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    cheeeeerist, that's awful. Had a good laugh though :D
    Including what passes for philosophy amongst oxhygen thieves is bad enough, but randomly mixing totally different philosophies is just horrible :D
    REAL philosophy: stoicism, plato, diogenes etc. That's philosophy that WORKS for a living. As in, will actually be of use to you in your thinking life. Most pseudo-eastern stuff is just meaningless babble.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2004
  2. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    What matters here is not whether or not someone else would like that but whether or not you like it. That is all that matters no matter what style you do.
     
  3. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    *Round of Applause*
     
  4. shodan-san

    shodan-san Valued Member

    Zen is one of those catch phrases that people who are unfamiliar with the root and ground of the word, but can see some of the leaves, do fall in love with.

    Not to break stride with this thread, but suggesting to teach Zen in the martial arts is akin to teaching the concept of "If I can surprise myself, I can surprise my opponent."

    That is probably what they are striving for, but it should be part and parcel of the MA experience, not a marketing tool to bring in students.
     
  5. Punch-Kik-Choke

    Punch-Kik-Choke Banned Banned

    I practice Zen Tao KenpoKempo Koon Do.

    It's totally sweet!!
     
  6. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    When CMAs first took off in the West they were sold through the media as ancient secret systems that automatically came as a package with profound spiritual teachings, enabling you to kick somebodies head in and say something profound at the same time. People like Bruce Lee managed to cash in on this big time and wowed the world by trotting out a few Chinese proverbs.

    If you want to allow somebody to guide your spirituality and view of the world, on the basis that they can beat people up effectively, or because they were in a few martial arts movies fair enough, personally I don't feel that it is an adequate qualification.

    My suspicion is that it's padding to make up for the fact that they don't have much to teach you about fighting.
     
  7. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    Within Shorinji Kempo we have three ranking systems. The first is bukai, this is the normal ranking system that most Japanese arts would be used to. We then have hokai ranks, this is the philosophical ranking system. Then we have sokai ranks, these are the religious ranks. It is very rare for westerners to hold a sokai ranking, as you can only gain one if you are a member of a doin, and these are rare outside Japan. Doin are different to a dojo or shibu, as their Branch Masters have a Sokai ranking high enough to teach and practice Kongo Zen Buddhism (this is the religious arm of Shorinji Kempo). At a normal shibu we don’t really concentrate on the religious side so much, but rather the philosophy and martial art.

    There is nothing conflicting in studying Zen and Martial Arts. We all have a right to protect ourselves. The important aspect is how we use these skills. Do we have any other options than fighting? Do we needlessly cause harm to others? Am I only practicing this art to show off my skill? Do we go into competitions just to show the world how tuff or good we are? These types of things could be considered conflicting, but when Martial Arts are studied as a form of Gyo, as was originally studied at the Shaolin Temple, then they are complementary.

    These days it is becoming increasingly difficult to study all aspects. For example, the laws have changed over recent years in Japan. Religion cannot be studied in publicly owned buildings like schools and universities. This has meant that there has been a need to change from our older textbooks that taught techniques, philosophy, and religious aspects. Now our textbooks only contain techniques and philosophy, and there is a separate religious book for kenshi who study at a doin, although I believe it has just been made available to any kenshi that want to buy it. This may have some future effect of lessening the amount of reference to the religion of Kongo Zen in many branches, but I think the philosophy will always be important to all kenshi.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2005
  8. shodan-san

    shodan-san Valued Member

    That was my point - they are or should be woven together. Not neccesarily the teachings of Zen Buddhism, but the concepts.

    Too often, people get up in a dander when someone tries to preach "religion" or "philosophy" that is different from theirs (read: parents :-( ), but the concepts can be passed on as part of the art without naming what it is.
     
  9. Jesh

    Jesh Dutch Side Of The Force

    Just remember this...

    If they advertise it as Zen-blablabla and they cover nothing of it in the curriculum it's probably McDojo. Just check these schools/styles out for yourself, there's no better teacher than experience.
     
  10. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I don’t see a problem is mixing the two as having a liberated, free-flowing mind will help your martial arts training, but more often than none I think their probably just doing it to attract the naive people who are fascinated by oriental spirituality and philosophy and to hide the shortcomings in the system there teaching. So yes, I think usually it’s just for marketing. I would expect it more for internal based schools such as Tai Chi.

    As has been mentioned, as Zen is so liberated, it would be hard for a newcomer (and maybe even relatively experienced people) to tell if what being spouted is a load of waffle.

    Personally, i wouldn’t want to train somewhere that does Zen lectures within the class as I’m there to learn the system and not all people would be interested. If you want to practice it, do so in your own time. However, I wouldn't mind having elements of it adapted into the philosophy of the system your learning.

    Ultimately I find Zen to be a personal journey so would prefer discover it myself.
     
  11. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    It’s certainly fair to say we are all seeking different aspects to our training. I wouldn’t expect everyone to find merit in discussions of philosophy.

    I’m not sure that I understand you comment on Zen being liberated? Are you talking about the use of zen riddles. If so it may surprise you that not all forms of zen use them. As for someone new listening to the philosophy and understanding if it is real, I’ll ask that you have a look through some of Doshin So’s lectures at this address http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/kaiso/index.html . Let me know if they seem confusing or lack value to normal people.

    I’m sure you are right with regard to marketing and dodgy schools. This is a concern almost universally. It could even be aimed at some MMA schools. There should not be too much mystery about Zen Buddhism; it is not a religion by western standards. It is only concerned with understanding the reality of the world we live in and offering some useful strategies to smooth our passage through it.
     
  12. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I say it's liberated as the free flowing nature of zen makes it hard to define.

    For example, when describing religions you can quite easily characterize them through the doctrines, beliefs, gods. There are usually people who tell you what to believe and what not to believe, what to do and what not to do.

    You can't do that with zen.

    It will never be a mass movement because of this reason. It is a journey of discovery without a map or destination and this is just too quirky for most people.

    "An empty cup contains the most" - To some people whats just madness ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2005
  13. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I think the basic principles and teachings are fairly straightforward, gaining enlightenment on the other hand is more difficult, and some people may find that one teaching method may work better for them than another. The four truths and the eight paths can be easily understood on a superficial level. There are no riddles like the one you closed with. These things are not principles, but rather exercises to get you to think beyond a superficial level, and examine the principles at a deeper level. We don’t use them; our means of learning the lessons are our training methods. They are designed so that along with some guidance and encouragement to think about issues on a deeper level we can come to a deeper understanding of the lessons that Buddhism can teach.
     
  14. Topher

    Topher allo!

    The problem with most people is they would be unwilling to see passed the exterior of zen, let alone go into a deeper level.

    I see Zen Buddhism to be quite diffrent to Zen.

    Although Zen is commonly associated with Buddhism, Buddhism does have the usual do's and dont's and doctrines found is all religions.
     
  15. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    There is no doubt that it is not for everyone. I wouldn’t expect it to be; but if it was something you wanted to be involved in then, you would be more open to it. There are quite a few arts that are established and well respected that teach a deeper understanding of human nature and the world around us. There was some statements earlier regarding using the eastern spirituality as a hook to capture certain people into shonky arts. I am just trying to make the point that while this could happen, there are a number of genuine well respected arts that have these components. Shorinji Kempo is a registered zen Buddhist religion, Kendo is a zen art, Aikido is also very spiritual although from a Shinto perspective, and I’m sure there would be a number from other countries too.
     

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