youtube taikai 2006 clip

Haven't we had this discussion before?

 

A discussion about Bujinkan and sparring? i doubt it!!

 

Deja Vu

 

There is a very real difference between someone who can take/inflict pain and someone who would willingly sustain/inflict (serious and/or permanent) damage to win/survive.

Without wanting to open the "sparring" can of worms again ...he knows you will not actually gouge his eyes out, or tear his cheek wide open with a finger-hook, or break a finger, or tear off an ear...

I am not commenting on the practicalities/usefulness/necessity of sparring in any way, but wanted to state that I believe what stops someone is not necessarily the pain, but what the pain suggests is coming pretty soon if it's not heeded!

 

To late, its been done, see new threads!!!

 

Oh No!!! ...not again!

 

:bang:

 

You and Kikaku have valid points--and I'm not arguing that--I was saying as someone who has used these 'tricks' they are not as reliable as people may think.

FWIW--and I don't have the footage either--I'll share a story where i did try to bite to harm someone--and almost lost a couple of teeth and broke my jaw in the process.

I was at a bjj seminar that a friend of mine was putting on and I was paired up with a student of his that was stronger than I was, and had been doing submission for quite a while. We had rolled before and I had beat him--making him look bad apparently, in his opinion. The drill that we were working on was escaping form a rear mount and keeping the other person from applying a rear naked choke. This guy used his strength to overpower me and keep me from working on the specific escape we were drilling, and in my opinion this had gone from a drill to a war. I was able to keep my chin down and keep him from choking me but he popped my jaw out of place by squeezing. Without thinking I sank my teeth into his forearm and bit down hard--it didn't phase him at all--and I loosened two of my teeth in the process. I wound up tapping.

Now let me reiterate that this type of behavior is not the norm at submission seminars--especially when working on a drill. If I had 'told on' him he'd probably been kicked out of the school. But my biting was a reaction based in desperation as he was trying to harm me.

On the other hand, I was attacked probably ten years ago trying to intervene when one of my sister's ex-boyfriends attacked her. He and I went to the ground on a very small front porch and I jabbed a finger into his eye to get him up--and it worked.

So for the record, I do believe things like biting, pinching, poking...whatever, can help if you already know how to grapple. But you can't rely on them to have the effect you hope. Sometimes they may, but sometimes they may not.

I think that what most of the people who do train mma, or submission of some type, are saying is that it is somewhat myopic to not train against talented people either standup or ground and say that you have a bag of dirty tricks that will save you. This may not be exactly what you(the generic you not anyone person specifically) are saying but it sounds that way.

Anyway, I'm done. Lurking mode(back) on.

 

I completely agree. These kind of tactics are really only an absolute last resort - by which I mean the actual damaging ones, where you feel you need to beyond (just) inflicting pain to get out!

No-one should ordinarily want to damage another human being to a great extent, especially things on a par with tearing the face or blinding them. I like to think that I am getting the better of my temper as I get older, but I reckon a lot of us secretly know what we would do to protect (and almost ashamed to say avenge) any harm to our most loved ones (i.e. children, wife, mother, etc). Seems I still have a way to go on that front, but am at least a lot better than in my teenage years.

That said ...if you have to bite them hard ...don't swallow any blood!

Oh my god. That was a joke ...but a pretty scary scenario. I may start another thread on that one...

 

What does Ed have to say about his technique?

 

I liked Arnoud Shihans techniqe alot, he has some great flow. I have seen a few of his tapes, he is a true gem in the Kan.
I do agree that sometimes, video can be your enemy as it doesn't show what you mean to show. We're human and screw ups happen, with luck that is when the camera is on. LOL.

Oh and we don't spar but do use full force/intention spontanious attack/randori.
The one thing I don't like Kan-wise is the A-typical punch. I mean it would be nice if I got attacked like that. But somehow it ain't gonna happen.

 

Wow that is another bad display of Ninjustu I wish people would stop filming this crap and someone actually did something credible to actually show the nay-sayers something of note and use.

It would go a long way towards improving the other arts perception of Ninjutsu. The video is very poor indeed and I was cringing during the entire time.

 

Sonshu posted

Take a look at the Mountains of Strength and Waves of Power DVDs by Stephen K Hayes if you want to see Ninjutsu in action. At the end of these discs are demonstrations where the students are just attacking each other. Nothing made up. Knives, sticks, fists, multiple attacks and all full if not almost full speed. Breathtaking.

This would certainly quiet the Nay Sayers.

Gary Arthur

 

Is any other that on youtube?

Frankly, I think ALL the DVDs are too expensive.

 

Off topic yet on topic...watching that clip...I noticed a clip down in the corner from [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8i7JyNQXtE&search=]Kaigousuru 1997 Taikai...[/ame]

Now, does anyone else notice a difference in the "feeling" of the training or is it just me?
Everything looks very candyarsed in the 2006 one. Too Soft!
Thoughts please...

 

Ed Martin "my" teacher

I have read this thread in its entireity. What I see is those who train in other arts attacking the arts of budo taijutsu. I also see those attacking Ed. I will preface this to say Ed is my teacher, Ed is a teacher, Ed is my friend. I hear people say all the time, Ed knows this, Ed dosnt know this, etc. etc. etc. .......

What I do know I will tell you, is that Ed, (Papasan to those he is close to) has taken many of us who have been left behind by teachers that did not care about their students, went off the deep end, had nowhere to turn, all of us under his wings. Ed is not an empire builder, as it is us who give our loyalty freely. He tells us to train with as many as possible, and never have I heard him say, dont train with that person. He says to go and train and see what you think for yourself. He has many of us with our own groups that travel to train with each other so we can pass along information to take back to our groups, and we ourselves learn.

I have not heard but possitive things from him concerning others of the bujinkan, but others want to badmouth him. I still train with my friends from the old Atlanta Bujinkan Dojo from time to time. Still, he is glad I am training and having a good time. If Papasan does not know, he always directs me to those who do, as he himself readily admits, he is still learning. With that kind of example, I am never afraid to say I dont know, but I hope to learn in time. The truth is because of the example he himself sets, there is no-one in the bujinkan I do not think I can learn something from.

The value of Papasan, is that he not only teaches techniques, but teaches the mind as well. Careing for others, leadership, inclusiveness, group therapy, and the big ole papsan smile that truly says he is glad to see you. See, you never really feel left out with papasan. When I have a question about what I need to do for the group here, I call him up and he always takes the time to help. He does that for all of us. I have seen people jump from his ship because they have forgotten what loyalty means. And still, he helps them out and wishes them well. Papasan is a 15th dan for a reason. I feel one reason is he tries to bring the Bujinkan together to train together. But sadly, someone is always trying to sabotage his efforts.

Papasan realizes that we all have things we are good at, and others we are not. He never gives up on us but nudges us along and says to keep going. I have met Dale, I would like to train with him some, and papasan would encourage that. There are many in the bujinkan I would like to train with, but time and distance affect us all. Papasan would encourage that. I know I may train with whomever I wish under his tuteledge, but it is papasan who is responsible for me. There are fifteen people in our group here that owe this groups very existance to him, and we repay his kindness everytime we get together and train and work through difficulty.

Of those under his wings, Angie Smith, Jeff Walker, Thom Humphreys, George Russell, Ira Lively, Sean Kennedy and many others I have not even met yet, we all get together and train at each others seminar. Instead of fifteen we may have 40 to 50 or more. We all learn. So you see, papasans wings shelter many. I just wish we could all stop attacking each other, and just look at the awsome things we each create. Not one person has a monopoly on the knowledge of the bujinkan. Even Sensei Hatsumi says he is still learning. So why cant we all just get along and realize that for each of our differences, there are many more we can agree about and make better?

Christopher Sanders
Chattanooga Bujinkan Dojo

 

Everyone always says they are still learning it is part of life. Perhaps it was just a bad set of clips (most seem to be though). The vid was soft, compliant and full of fudokens as usual.

Sorry you might rate this guy but on the strength of the clips shown it is more the reason as to why I left Ninjutsu, not cos I did not get it but more because I barely broke a sweat and people fall over before I really do anything

I am sure your instructor is a great guy and nice friend as most turn out to be but the video is very poor.

 

And Hatsumi's videos aren't? Or maybe I didn't understand what you meant by 'fudokens'.

Also, soft isn't necessarily a bad thing in my opinion. Especially when teaching, and especially when it's a 3 day seminar we're talking about. I'm not saying hard is bad, I'm saying that hard and soft together is good. But I would never look at a "soft" video clip and say that it's negative (I'm not saying you do, just an overall reflection).

Then I think you trained with the wrong folks... if you like an art, you need to find people to train with who share your goals. I've never had someone fall over before doing anything Unless they were forced to so as not to break their bones or wrist or something.

Okay, I wasn't sure, but now I rewatched the video. Having been there, and now seeing it again for the umptenth time, I can understand what some people see is poor with it. But when I see it, I feel that either I am more stupid than everyone else here, or I have realized something you don't. I see lots of things that I remember from being there - small details that I was trying hard to grasp and even big basic parts I tried to grasp. I see the stuff now and I think how much my taijutsu have changed in this 1½ month since the TaiKai, and I don't feel in any way that what is shown in the video clip is 'poor' or 'bad'. Each clip just needs to be put in a context. Each teacher was illustratin a point. Lauri, for example, did several different versions of Gekkan, each illustrating different points in taijutsu. I'm not saying everything in the video is Hatsumi-level, I'm just saying that there's something good in most.

Sure, if you don't understand or know the context - that's fine too. But I would not say that it's bad only because of that.

Just my humble opinion...

 

If your 6th que you should know what I am on about

Soft is good but many of the people there are dan grade as there is no shortage of them in the art so they should be able to when dan grade trains with dan grade it look something akin to self defence. The face was they all are defending against unreal empty hand techniques and anyone can look great when doing that. It is humbly the same in about every Ninjutsu vid I have seen. Train against one static attack and wow aren't I impressive.

Soft and hard are needed but there is never any hard in any vid on the nett -if someone can show me.......then great?

Thanks for the common sense tips but tried that and its all too compliant for my thoughts. I have had many many people fall over for no good reason over the years.

If your training has changed that much after one short seminar then you were doing it very wrong to begin with. Basics are the key to Taijutsu and most other arts and these should always remain a constant (its the iciing on the cake which you can develop and play with). These single techniques anyone can do with some rudamentry Aikido or Jujutsu experience and look ok its the real life delivery which is not covered often enough I feel in taijutsu.

If there are video's on the nett to show me please point me in the right direction.

A common sense thought needs to be applied as YELLOW BAMBOO was some tosh McDojo style which they could have easily said you do not understand the context of this and hence don't get it but we all knew and know it was rubbish. The technique on its own should be context enough because it works. Watch any technique from the SDF and its pretty obvious what it does and no context needs to be explained. Hope this makes sense.

 

No, I honestly don't. I know what a Fudo Ken is, but I don't know what's negative about it in a video.

Are you trying to get another "full resistance" debate going here? First of all there wasn't much footage at all of people training in the clip - rather it was of instructors instructing. Second I don't know about "looking great" - in my opinion, Jet Li looks great doing his wire scenes in movies. I don't think any Taijutsu instructor ever emphasizes "looking great". As I said earlier, if I'm training with a good uke, I cannot do a technique unless I do it correctly. Of course I could just use sheer strength, or I could just punch the guy on the nose, but that's something else.

Taijutsu techniques - as I see them - are for learning taijutsu.

Just so we're on the same page - what is your definition of hard in this context?

That's because of your Uke and yourself, not because of the art.

Here's what I said:

I see lots of things that I remember from being there - small details that I was trying hard to grasp and even big basic parts I tried to grasp. I see the stuff now and I think how much my taijutsu have changed in this 1½ month since the TaiKai,

1) I said my taijutsu has changed 1½ months since then, not after one short seminar
2) I was doing what very wrong to begin with? I'm pretty sure my taijutsu then was very wrong, and probably still is, but I'm wondering how you gathered that from what I wrote? I just said that as I look at the clip I see things I had lots of problems with then, but that my taijutsu has changed since then (I implied, but didn't say, that it has improved), and that through training in my dojo I have come to understand on some level those things I couldn't grasp at all before.
3) I never said my training changed, just my taijutsu.
4) Just to clarify, I strive to improve my taijutsu with every training opportunity I have. A 3-day seminar lets me do that even more.

What are the basics in taijutsu according to you?

Thanks for the good and peaceful discussion