Your idea of "real" Taekwondo / Tae Kwon Do / Taekwon-do

I thought your comments with Crocop, btw, were on point. I would also say his boxing, however, is what allows his kicks to work so well. Part of me thinks he has forgotten that (as a big fan of his).

But my point about grappling and SD is not that grappling can't be used for SD, but rather it is not absolutely necessary and essential (as many seem to believe these days). I have known people who have successfully defended themselves with ZERO grappling ability. Admittedly I've known a few others who didn't fare as well...but none of those were due to lack of grappling (but rather getting sucker punched). None of the ones who were less successful said to me, "Man he had me in a good scarfhold and if only I'd worked my escapes it would have all been good..." It never even went to the ground.

Don't get me wrong. I truly think I am much better prepared because of my grappling training. I just don't think it is as 'necessary' as some believe it to be. I think of it more as really good exercise, is fun, has good health benefits, AND has some definite self-defense benefits.

EDIT: Reread my post and I'm still not making sense. What I'm trying to say is that I don't want to see TKD classes become MMA classes. If a couple of escapes a few basic throws and maybe the scissor sweep was part of the curriculum that would be more than enough.

 

Excellent post mate. Nice to see someone who know what theyre talking about: Basic and aggressvie.

You're not my uncle are you? LOL (joke Stu ok?)

 

This is an interesting post! I find myself agreeing with PAS SMITH.

From my own point of veiw and having trained and taught TKD for the last 20 years i'm no stranger to the art. I am a 5th Dan and come from Won Kuk Lee lineage just to give you a quick background check. What I do in my school these days is so derived from how most people see Taekwondo these days I find it difficult to call it that anymore.

I like what Stuart A amoung others are doing with regards to the pattern applications, although in my opinion I still feel alot of the techniques presented would be unworkable against an aggressive opponent. IMPO Also if this new wave of applications does start to become mainstream I wouldnt know them anyway.

"Real Taekwondo" I dont think I'll bother steping deeply into that mine field of a debate my my thoughts are, Real Taekwondo has been found to have weaknesses and I think its up to the present day dedicated instructors to evole this art rather than trying to make sense of old ways that really dont make much sense at all.

 

Yup.. no problem.. if I knew what the hell you were talking about!

Or maybe its just more deception eh!

 

i use a short staff or jung bong in my training this a video of me using it in Pyung Ahn Eedan. but it could also be used just as easy in Won Hyo as it was that pattern i used it in first

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSnv9bIIW5M"]YouTube - Jung Bong Tul[/ame]

this is a video of a few of the techniques involved in this version of the pattern with the jung bong...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY7DdIjr9_8"]YouTube - Jung Bong Techniques 1[/ame]

 

I think that learning 'how' to use the weapons is also valid. If you live in the US then you're entitled to use firearms, and therefore may well face firearms. So it's important to know how to use them, in order to avoid them (if you see what I mean). For example, understanding how a gun man will track targets enables you to understand why running away in a straight line is suicidal. But, unless you're actually shooting something (BB, Paintball, or a real gun at a moving range target) you're not going to really believe.

If you're learning to defend against knives then you need to learn how to attack with knives (since you can't defend if the person can't attack). Most people are knife experts anyway, they've been using them for years. However, specific attacks such as the Gypsy warning stab, Colombian Slice etc, although specific are still examples as to how someone might come at you with a knife.

 

Yes i agree with your list and i think that some ground game should also be incorporated for sure. Maybe even utilizing a little bit of elbows and knees would be beneficial. I wish my club was like this list T.T

 

Well, many clubs already use knees and elbows. I do think a more in-depth ground game would benefit the art, not as deep as BJJ, but deeper than the 'official' ground stuff is now.

Stuart

 

"Understanding" the ground game was one of the first tasks I tackled when I left TKD.
In the beginning it seemed very complex, so many positions, so many techniques.
That was until I understood the various positional relationships and how they relate in a hierarchy. Once I understood how these positions formed "landmarks" in the chaos of a scramble and how they would/could flow from one to the other it all started falling into place. The next part of the puzzle was looking at high percentage fundamental escapes and transitions.
Once that "structure" is in place actual techniques and subs take there rightful place as the least important part of the groundfighting package. They are the final part of the puzzle.
That's why it worries me when people dismiss groundfighting by saying "Well I wouldn't use a spider-guard (insert specific technique here) on the street".
That's entirely missing the point. That's not seeing the wood for the trees.
An understanding of positional dominance actually transcends technique (an opinion I've tried to disseminate whenever groundfighting is mentioned or dismissed too flippantly).
Whatever your goal, when a fight hits the floor utilising positional dominance (and the often overlooked flipside of preventing a dominant position being used against you) will help you.
You can actually have a ground fighting approach without learning ANY submissions at all.
In fact submissions can cloud the intrinsically fairly simple underlying structure of ground fighting (as is shown by how many people fixate on technique as "being" ground fighting).

So...for ground fighting for TKD students (or anyone that wants to remain striking focused but would like more holistic fighting skills) I'd recommend incorporating some of the following...
Familiarise yourself with the mount, side control (of various sorts), taking the back and the guard.
Learn how to regain your feet efficiently (it's amazing how many people calmly go on about "standing up" but then fail to address what exactly that can mean or how best to do it). It's a skill like any other. The Gracies call this "standing up in base" and it should be a fundamental skill for all stand up fighters.
Start to do your padwork (if you do any!) from disadvantagous positions. Power production is different on the ground (see if you can use a sine wave when your punching from your knees!).
Look at the basic movement types and how they apply to escaping the main pinning positions (positions even untrained people will adopt). Things like the shrimp, the elbow escape, the bridge and roll and the sit through.
Hopefully with that little lot you should start to build up a mental "flow chart" of objectives and aims when the fight goes horizontal.

And leave submissions to the BJJ and MMA guys. You don't need 'em for ground fighting.

 

PASmith-

Agree with your statement on positions. To be perfectly honest I get more satisfaction from a good escape than I get from a submission. Conversely I get more frustrated with myself if I wasn't able to escape someone's mount than I get from tapping due to a submission. And as you know shrimp, elbow escape, bridge roll, etc never seem to work by themselves but only when you chain together escape attempts. It is a chess game and something that has to be drilled and experimented with over, and over, and over.

Which is why I don't incorporate any of the stuff in my TKD classes. Instead I pull combos and footwork from A. Silva/Rutten instructionals and try to get in more bag work. When students only show up twice a week you've got to focus on a couple specific things.

Personally I'd like to see the sweeps and takedowns from Shotokan as part of the curriculum (which is what Stuart seems to be doing) more than I'd like to see more 'groundfighting'. I suppose the reason is that if they want an education on the ground they can seek it out and take separate classes on it (like I do). With the limited time we have in TKD classes we have certain skills to impart.

 

I agree and this is a good way to describe it. Its really not about having a complete BJJ groudn game, just having a decent understanding of it so it can be utilized if needed.. something I don't actually see as original TKD, but something I do believe would close a major gap.

Again, all good (should be common) sense stuff IMO

Which is the aim of what we do!

Nice post btw.

Stuart

 

I hear ya.. me too.

This I feel is a sort of "6 of 12/half a dozen" situation. I get what your saying in focucing on less things makes them get them better sooner, but I feel it depends on what the final objectives are. Mine is to utilize TKD to make my students conversant in defence at all ranges and that may take a little longer, but I think the end result pay the dividends. For the twice a week student it may even make them consider training more often as they have more to take in/learn!

Never done Shotokan.. so you must mean the sweeps and take downs from TKD.. yup, we do them

Personally i feel they can both co-exsist. Like we seem to agree, you don't have to have a full on ground curriculum unless you want to go into the competitive arena, as for SD its not needed, so a 'ground basics' type of thing can be incorportated pretty easily. Students love it btw!

Of course.. this is something I mention in my classes. We do throws, but I often tell students if they want to get them much better they need to visit a judo class, same with ground, but the basics to get them out of a tight spot can be incorporated into standard classes.

Trainings for life isnt it.. to me thats a decent ammount of time to impart skillsets!

Stuart

 

WARNING OFF TOPIC, but something I thought some of you would enjoy.

I'm going through A. Silva's book right now looking for drills and such to incorporate. But thought you guys might be interested in this. He got his start in TKD. Basically he was raised by his aunt and uncle who was already supporting a large family. They didn't have money for martial arts classes. But he had this burning desire to learn it so he used to just hang around the TKD studio. Eventually the instructor just started training him for free.

And he does credit this training to his success today. As he says, "Rather unexpectedly, my life as a martial artist had begun. I trained every chance I could, and under Master Kangi's rigid discipline, I learned how to control my leg movements -- an attribute that still saves me in fights today. The more I applied myself, the more my personality stabilized. I learned patience and the meaning of dedication..."

He clearly respected his TKD teacher (calling him a great man). But also goes on to say he wanted to learn many martial arts (which led him to train Hapkido and Capoeira (seemingly along with his TKD training) and eventually Muay Thai and MMA with Chute Box (at this point no longer a recreational trainer but a serious amateur competitor on his way to going pro...)

 

I veiw grappling similar to PAsmith.

Its basicaly about position.You need to get position to strike and be able to escape.If a submision presents itself,then take it but looking to strike or get up is the number one idea.
The best ways to train and the best drills to get these skills in the shortest time come from grappling specific arts/sports so it just makes sense to take directly from them in my opinion.
Plus stand up grappling is important in my opinion be it clinching pushing,shoving or pulling.All are likely to occur in a real situation.So getting skills here means a person can dominate to strike by controlling these aspects or strike and then do it all to them(push them,pull them,shove them, tie them up then hit them)

As far as I know the original idea of Tode (Karate in its first form) was to controll,breakdown then finish .Meaning make a safe entry and close the distance either by attacking or responding to thier attack as in SD,controll them,break them and get them in a position they cant do anything about it and THEN hit them with hard strikes.That is apparently what most applications should be.
In todays age the best training for controlling at clinch range comes from Greco Roman and Muay Thai.Some Judo grips too.Then all the hard simple TKD strikes can come in when they are tied up or off balance or whatever.
Thats how I view it and thing how TKD is best applied.If a guy puts his hand on you suddenly you get it off by hitting the arm or controlling it,not in a fancy flowering way, then just hit them.
If you step outside for a fight and go from a stance and move etc etc then TKD is not suited so well here.
I look at it that all the blocks that go before strikes were realy meant to be pummeling and tieing up and clearing limbs to get controll then the strike is the big hit or hits.Because its been passed on its got lost so now I do proper clinching to put that back in to my patterns.
Thats just how my view,of my real TKD and itmight not make sense if a person has not done pummeling or clinch work.