Your Hyung Sets You FREE!

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Ki_Power, Apr 2, 2009.

  1. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    most people on here should be familiar with the term shadow boxing, and know what it entails as well as the goals from practising it.

    on top of your weapons hyung practise, you should be shadow boxing with your weapons, taking out the movements from your hyung and trying to put the in to a natural free flowing exercise.

    to me this is what is being demonstrated in the vid clips posted, and in my view is an invaluable training tool.
     
  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Okay. First let me state that I'm merely playing "Devil's Advocate" with this reply...

    I said if you knew for certain that the guy could hold onto his weapon, then I'd believe you. But I'm afraid the fact that he does weapon sparring doesn't preclude the possibility that when sparring, he continuously gets unarmed by his opponents because he prefers to "flip" his stick aimlessly about his body. If you know the guy PERSONALLY, then you should have given *better* evidence. Prearranged sparring sets don't necessarily mean that you don't learn how to *hold onto your weapon* so I'm at a loss why you mentioned that the guy doesn't do them.

    Your reference to KSW short stick also has me stymied. Your description of a loose grip tells me you were shown incorrectly. Quite the contrary, the grip must be like a vise. You are correct in stating that it be held by only thumb and (middle) finger, with the other fingers coming into play in order to provide a "snapping" action. The fact that the stick is not rigid in your hand by virtue of ALL the fingers not contributing to the grip, allows for it to be manipulated in such a way as to generate more SPEED on its way to target. The small size of the weapon is part of why this type of technique is admonished (mass X velocity = force), and is not so much a factor with larger (stick) weapons.

    Lastly, please understand that I have nothing against the weapon techniques demonstrated in the videos, but using a stick/staff in such a manner should be a CHOICE of the practitioner. As an instructor, I feel that it's wrong to tell students that such manipulations are GOOD in combat, that's all.





    You don't know me, so don't presume that you know which weapons I have trained with. Thank you.
     
  3. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    To unknown-KJN

    The title of this thread is: "Your Hyung Sets You FREE!" To which, I would argue - or debate (in the nicest way I know) that, whilst 'set forms' may indeed have some value, I believe that to only practice set patterns is extremely limiting - in the same way that if every time you sparred empty-handed with one another, you did exactly the same thing.

    So, in reply to your last seen post here are my comments and reply:

    "Okay. First let me state that I'm merely playing "Devil's Advocate" with this reply..."

    Oh really... I thought you were being deliberately argumentative and confrontational. Unlike Ki_Power and psbn matt who were at least trying to see the true meaning behind my two posts containing the guys with the staffs.

    "I said if you knew for certain that the guy could hold onto his weapon, then I'd believe you. But I'm afraid the fact that he does weapon sparring doesn't preclude the possibility that when sparring, he continuously gets unarmed by his opponents because he prefers to "flip" his stick aimlessly about his body. If you know the guy PERSONALLY, then you should have given *better* evidence. Prearranged sparring sets don't necessarily mean that you don't learn how to *hold onto your weapon* so I'm at a loss why you mentioned that the guy doesn't do them."

    Ok, I'll keep this short. The reason I mentioned pre-arranged sparring sets as that is a part of the Kuk Sool syllabus - along with staff hyung and the twirling. My question to you is, have you ever taken it beyond that and truly tested your real ability with the staff and either free-sparred with it, or taken it with you to the Pub' and had a real dust-up with it in the car park? The guy in the first video spars freely and DOES NOT "...continuously gets unarmed by his opponents...".

    "Your reference to KSW short stick also has me stymied. Your description of a loose grip tells me you were shown incorrectly. Quite the contrary, the grip must be like a vise. You are correct in stating that it be held by only thumb and (middle) finger, with the other fingers coming into play in order to provide a "snapping" action. The fact that the stick is not rigid in your hand by virtue of ALL the fingers not contributing to the grip, allows for it to be manipulated in such a way as to generate more SPEED on its way to target. The small size of the weapon is part of why this type of technique is admonished (mass X velocity = force), and is not so much a factor with larger (stick) weapons."

    I am pretty sure that I was taught Dan Bong Hyung privately [one-to-one] by Master Barry Harmon, some years ago when I stayed with him in San Mateo. So we had best blame him then! In any case, if you hold the Dan Bong in a 'vise-like grip' you simply cannot use it in the correct manner. The hold should be 'firm but relaxed' until the snapping strikes are actually made. I would liken it to holding a small bird, with one finger and thumb around its neck. Too loose, and the bird will fly away. Too tight, and you will crush all life from it. You should also be aware that if you continuously grip your weapon [any weapon] in a 'vise-like grip', you will limit the flexibility in the wrist, and also be in danger of raising your blood pressure. Even when punching, the fist should not be closed tight until a fraction before impact.

    "Lastly, please understand that I have nothing against the weapon techniques demonstrated in the videos, but using a stick/staff in such a manner should be a CHOICE of the practitioner. As an instructor, I feel that it's wrong to tell students that such manipulations are GOOD in combat, that's all."

    I think the days of Robin Hood are now well past, so I think the likelihood of (m)any of us using a staff "...in [actual] combat..." is rather slim.

    "You don't know me, so don't presume that you know which weapons I have trained with. Thank you."

    Yes I'm sorry about that. My sentence should have read: "...rather than a mid-to-long length staff as you might normally use" IN KUK SOOL. I rather assumed that you were one of those people who never ventured beyond the fixed boundaries of your system.
     
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Wow! I like that analogy. I was going for the Black vs. White explanation rather than the somewhat confusing, "firm but relaxed." But the fact that only ONE finger (from each side of the grip) is holding the stick, then that allows for more mobility of the stick in your grasp. For lack of a better word, let's call it "wobbliness." No matter how tight your grip, if only the middle finger and thumb are forming the grasp, the stick will wobble. By definition, a "loose" grip would mean that the stick could be easily dropped, or worse, go flying out of your hand when whipping it to generate the required speed for an effective strike. So I think we're talking about the same thing, even though using different terminology.

    But now you've brought up another interesting question. The tight grip vs. loose wrist issue. One of my pet peeves WRT sword spinning (done in kuk-sool as a deflective maneuver) is the usual habit of most practitioners to "loosen" their grip to only the thumb and forefinger, in order to allow a "smoother" execution of the spin. According to the way I learned, this is wrong.

    Bear with me while I mention some boring anatomical facts. There are no muscles that originate in the hand. ALL of them originate in the forearm, compress into tendons while passing through the wrist, and expand back into muscle on the other side. Because of this, most people find it difficult to maintain a strong grip while bending the wrist (this is also why there are SO MANY joint-locks that target the wrist). But one can manage to do both with enough effort and practice. Some professions (such as plumbers or car mechanics) where using/gripping tools while the hands are wrapped around obstacles in the way of where the tools are to be applied, naturally work this aspect. If you've ever had someone with this type of job as a student, then you know that many joint-locking techniques are not as effective, since they posses a unique type of "strength yet flexibility" in their wrists.

    Sorry my explanation was a bit long-winded, but I think it was necessary to properly address the statement you made about how a strong grip would limit wrist flexibility (the last time I chose "conciseness" you challenged me, despite the fact we were "on the same page").


    You crack me up. ROFL

    If you aren't concerned with weapon fighting in present-day society, why do you admonish the "tight fist only at impact." When doing hyung (you apparently seem to think some hyung is beneficial), why not always maintain a loose fist to help keep your blood pressure down? Most sparring gloves protect the hand sufficiently and actually PREVENT the type of fist that you need to make if hitting bare-knuckled, so there's really no need to teach this aspect of fighting which is only important to know should you get in a real fight. I really find your approach to MA confusing. :confused:

    Funny you should mention "taking it to the Pub" as I don't frequent bars/saloons as much as when I was younger. But yes, there were a few incidents where a pool cue became a handy implement as an "equalizer" when outnumbered by ruffians at the local billiards tavern. :D

    As for "realistic" weapons sparring, I think it would be better suited in the thread (also started by Liam) about MA weapons/supplies. So look for a new post from me there, after I've looked up the pertinent reference material. :cool:
     
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    In the kwan I belong to the "snapping" action of the wrist begins with the empty-hand techniques and transitions right into the weapon beginning with the mini-stick (K. SOH BONG), DAN BONG, Cane, Sword and Staff. Focus is on gripping firmly with the last three fingers and keeping the wrist supple. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  6. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    It seems this technique is highly prominent in the HKD arts. The blue arrowheads in your avatar are an obvious link to the KIDO HAE logo. Both this Ki fist and the HINT at it using arrowhead like symbols are illustrated below:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    The grip I referenced only uses the ring & pinky for the snapping action, as well as securing the grip with the thumb (thought I should clarify that even though the thumb is extended in the Ki fist position, it IS used in sword and staff gripping techniques). And when you say SOH BONG [소봉 - lit. small staff/stick] are you referring to something akin to the Japanese yawara/kubotan? As far as Korean weapons go, I am only familiar with a short stick (approx. 13 in.) and not a mini stick (6 in.).
     
  7. Ki_Power

    Ki_Power Banned Banned

    DARN! I always miss the fun stuff!!! :evil:


    I like the "Flashy" stuff alot...I mean, I think every young boy gets drawn to MA by watching Bruce Lee and Sho Kusugi, etc...But on the flip side, I know value of solid techniques...
     
  8. KSW_Fighter451

    KSW_Fighter451 Valued Member

    Well...... This thread has gone completely :topic:

    Sounds very interesting... Care to explain a bit more?

    I have created my own forms, but i never really thought of them as having any value besides looking wicked awesome.
     
  9. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Regarding the practise of forms (hyung) in Kuk Sool:

    If we look at arts from other parts of the world, such as the Philippines for example, we find that some systems include the practise of set patterns (known as Sayaw in systems such as Doce Pares Eskrima). Some systems do not. What they do have in common, however, is that they ALL expound and encourage the practise of Karenza (or Carenza). This is a form of free play - a kind of 'shadow boxing' if you like. Here is one example I found on YouTube: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJXh8ijK1Lc"]YouTube - CARENZA[/ame]
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I continue to be struck by the parallels I keep finding between my MA practice and my recent infatuation with learning the piano.

    Like my MA practice, the piano requires that I learn basic skills such as eye-hand coordination, reading music, various chord progressions and so forth. There is also music theory to help me tie things together.

    I suppose I could have gone the same route as in "learning" to play the guitar. In that case I would pick-out chords and and generally strum along to whatever simple pop songs I could coax from those 6 strings, sorta like what, say, some folks do in their garage with a MA book or video.

    There is also the MA concept of "does it work on the street?" which when translated into "piano-ese" reads "hey....do you know ________?"

    When it comes to MA HYUNG, the piano has a variety of "finger-power" exercises and short songs, each of which targets a particular aspect of piano skills. These don't encapsulate all that piano-playing can be and there is a lot more to making the instrument "mine". But they are great for building facility in anticipation of greater things to come.

    No real point here other than a casual observation from my own experience. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Plink-a-plunk!

    Ha, ha! I didn't say whether I thought those guys were good or not - in fact they were a bit limited and repetitive for my liking, and I doubt if either of them can play a piano - although I could be wrong!

    Your belief in pre-set forms also make me smile, it tells me that you have an unquestioning belief in the person who put the moves together in the first place. If that [almost God-like] person simple put a whole load of moves together, and in no particular order, just for the sake of it, then you've been conned.

    What was it Bruce Lee said? Oh yes, "Instead of going to the heart of things, flowery forms (organised despair) and artificial techniques are ritually practiced to simulate actual combat. Thus, instead of "being" in combat these practitioners are "doing" something "about" combat."
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    My "unquestiong belief" is in the very nature of Education. And, as a professional Educator I believe that, with an open mind, one can be educated in a variety of ways from observing children at play to discussing the thoughts of great men. I have found that ignorance begins where education stops and that the key to pushing back that frontier is in first identifying that one is in need of information.

    On a different note, I can also share that I have become suspicious of people who decry any form of education without offering an alternative, especially if terms such as "simpler", "easier", "cheaper" or "faster" work their way into the presentation. Of course, YMMV.

    In the matter of Bruce Lee, I can't speak with much authority about what he may or may not have said. I know that much of what he is reported to have believed has often been taken out of context, been misunderstood, misrepresented and not infrequently incorrect. What I have found is that he is often invoked by individuals who are seeking a rationale for cutting corners and avoiding commitment to applying themselves. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2009
  13. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Edacutoin

    IKWYM & UWYACF regarding the learning process. Although I also believe that one should ask questions, and then not be afraid to question or challenge the answers.

    A good education is paramount, and MMDNV much to yours on that. But it is also true to say that many humans are lazy by nature. Which is why the British, as a nation of people, are only a few steps behind Americans, as a nation of people, in the fat stakes. Maybe it's also why some people are so fond of using abbreviations (strings of letters as against true acronyms) instead of writing the whole sentence!

    Lee's quote was taken from his book 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do - I had someone else who can read, read it out to me! :)
     
  14. Ki_Power

    Ki_Power Banned Banned


    Make them have value! Of course this is my opinion, but forms are used as a way to develope and open a pratitioner's mind to the reality of MA.

    When I was a Marine Copr Drill Instructor, we transformed civilians inot basically trained, physically fit, MARINES. Many of whome would be on their way to combat soon... When we train, we can only do our very best to "simulate" a combat environment. Which is EXTREMEMLY STRESSFUL! So, while a recruit undergoes his or her training, we (the Drill Instructors) create the most stressful situations possible 24 hours a day...even eating chow or making a head call (using the bathroom) is stressful enough to drive some to suicide...but it serves a purpose...at least until the Government lets me load-up with live ammunition and start actually shooting at recruits and making them survive...stress is what we have. In the end, the recruit has adjusted and learned to function at peak levels regardless of the stress presented.

    In hyung, we practice connected moves to simmulate battle...but only practicing what is taught (Ki Cho, Cho Geup, Bak-Pal-Ki, Etc..) limits combat effectiveness and leaves the "blinders" on.

    Take the blinders off and create form and movement that is natural and doesn't always look pretty. Real MA fights don't look like Kung-Fu Theatre or The Matrix...they are a mess. But unless you jump into the ring every day or every time you train and go fist-a-cuffs with someone new each time, you will not develop your warrior skills.

    So, all that to say...if you want to make your MA training "practical", create new forms, shadowbox, spar with the invisible warriors from ancient Japan or China, and allow your hyung to set you free...
     
  15. KSstudent

    KSstudent Valued Member

    I went through a boot=camp, and I recall everybody doing the same thing as they were instructed to. anybody that took their blinder off were in big trouble. practicing the same movement over and over makes them automatic, in batle you will do the moves without thought. You can break any form into small parts.the fluid movement between these parts is what I feel Hyungs are all about.
     
  16. Ki_Power

    Ki_Power Banned Banned


    Good point, but IMO, the "thought" is still there...it just becomes "natural" and "reactive".
     
  17. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    While I agree about no two fights being identical, I suspect that you would have to agree that most attacking movements are roughly the same. I mean, there's only so many ways to get in on somebody and therefore one can plan ahead with contingencies for the all the different entry angles. Using the painting analogy, most artists don't paint the same picture over & over, but they do use the same techniques over & over for applying paint to the canvas, and for mixing or overlapping the colors.

    In this regard, I feel that forms can help make certain combinations of movements more fluid as an *automatic* response to a threat, and thus "setting you free" as a result.
     
  18. SatoriTheLush

    SatoriTheLush Valued Member

    My first MA experience was with TKD as a teenager. I don't know how many of you have also studied TKD, but the white belt form I practiced , Taeguek Il Jang, was unbearably boring. I immediately began making up my own at home. I was frustrated at the absence of circular movements in the style, too. It didn't meet the expectations all of my movie watching had provided! So I came up with what were more like dances than anything else, involving plenty of inside and outside kicks, and my best imitation of rolling hands. Yeah, I really liked kung fu movies when I was younger...

    I think I got a lot out of all of that practice, though. I spent a LOT of time on it, and my movements took on a new level of fluidity. Back in TKD class, my sparring improved, I think because I was becoming comfortable with my body and with the kicks and strikes I used in my routines at home.

    Now that I'm studying Kuk Sool, I don't do that much anymore. Maybe I should.
     

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