Not sure where to put this so here goes:- Ok, the deal is that I've been doing Kung Fu for 8 months now and I'm enjoying it. However, I've felt that I wanted to add grappling to the mix as well. I've held off until now because I really wanted to get a thorough grounding in Kung Fu before I started training in something else. However, the building we train in has now been closed down and at the moment we don't know where or when we will be next training. As I don't want to stop MA, I've looked around for what's on offer and grappling-wise I have a choice - Judo or JJJ. The problem is, I really can't make a decision. I want something that is really going to be both fun and help me with my overall fighting/self defense. The pros and cons I can see are as follows a) Judo Pros: 1) It is the closest class to me 2) Randori means I will be constantly sparring against a resisting opponent, which will increase fitness and also effectiveness against a real resisting opponent in a real life fight 3) It is very strong when it comes to the clinch at taking someone from their feet (where most fights start) to the ground. Cons: 1) I've heard that it is somewhat limited in it's techniques (ie joint locks, etc) compared to JJJ 2) Some people say that it has had certain technqiues removed due to being too harmful for a sport-focused MA. I feel such technqiues would be beneficial to learn for self-defense. b) JJJ Pros: 1) It allegedly has more damaging techniques that could severely disable an opponent as it doesn't have to worry about injuring an opponent on the mat during competition 2) It includes a measure of stand-up (atemi?) / striking training and so I guess would be more realistic in learning how to block an attackers strike before taking the opponent off their feet 3) It also includes Kobudo weapons training which would be fairly interesting to learn Cons 1) It is a few miles further away from me than the Judo classes and so not as convenient to get to 2) I'm not sure if they practice against resisting opponents. I've heard that JJ drills tend to be against a compliant opponent (as the technqiues are potentially more dangerous). A lack of randori would be off-putting as there would be no way to really try out your techniques realistically. I don't want to end up LARPing. As you can see, I know the pros and cons but it still doesn't help. I know I will be told to go and see the classes for myself and I intend to. I'm due to see the Judo class next week. What it really comes down to is that the randori is really selling the Judo for me. However, I'm just concerned that I will be limited in my techniques and miss out on some stuff that I might learn in JJJ because it isn't feasible in sports competitions. Would I really be missing out on some good SD locks and stuff?
If you are younger than 25 go for the Judo. If you are 25-60, go for the JJJ. If you are over 60 get yourself a gun and a big dog and just spend the time enjoying old lady porn sites.
>If you are younger than 25 go for the Judo. If you are 25-60, go for the JJJ. I started Judo when well into middle age and I'm OK (that is, I suck at Judo, but I haven't been injured). Th OP is right on the money about the pros and cons of Judo as SD training. It is true that Judo excludes anything regarded as too dangerous (although we now know that choking does a lot more damage than Kano probably thought.) It would be helpful to know how to break fingers and ankles, etc. but for obvious reasons you can't do these things in randori or shiai. As for JJJ, it depends on the dojo. Judo is a well-defined sport with a recognized central authority and widely-enforced standards. JJJ is an all purpose label like "kung fu," covering styles ranging from cosplay to hardcore SD training. If you find the right dojo you may get the same benefits as Judo along with some additional techniques. Yes, you need live practice against resisting opponents to learn anything, but that doesn't necessarily mean you need live practice of *every* technique. Randori and its equivalents in other full contact arts teach you *to fight* as much as *to do armbars* or whatever particular techniques you use.
Honestly the best thing to do is to take some time to go to both schools and check out a class or two. Obviously the randori involved with Judo is a huge positive aspect. Personally in self defense situations (granted I'm not exactly getting into streetfights every day) I find being skilled in throws/takedowns in general is enormously important. Not only are your opponents likely not going to be skilled in breakfalling, but you are also going to be throwing them full force on a hard surface, potentially leading to serious injury, but at the very least buying you time to deal with another attacker or just get the heck out of there. Furthermore, at a good school, you should be versed enough on the ground to deal with most opponents (save in the case of being mugged by BJJers who hopefully you'd be able to toss on their heads ) My guess is that in mmmost JJJ schools you are correct in that most of the curriculum not taught in most Judo schools will be taught very compliantly. If you find this to be the case, my recommendation would be to make friends with an Aikidoka who is fond of realistic training. Most of the standing locks and so forth usually found in the average modern JJJ school will have been lifted directly from Aikido. Without sufficiently realistic training, I do not think you would be missing much at all. The same thought process applies to the potential atemi training. However, due to the ambiguous nature of the term it's impossible to predict what you may find in any given JJJ school. With a good instructor and good, realistic training, a curriculum broader than that of Judo could be a positive thing. The uniformity in curriculum, the "aliveness" of the training, and the proven techniques of Judo, cause me to lean in its direction. Modern JJJ schools and Judo schools will consist of many (if not predominantly) similar or identical techniques. It is not Judo itself that causes injury, but the intensity with which it is practiced. At a good "alive" JJJ school, injury will be just as common. The way to combat this is to constantly expand your knowledge of your body's workings and limitations, and to learn to properly strengthen particularly vulnerable areas. SnorriSturluson - Please expand on your claims regarding the dangers of choking. Obviously choking can easily injure or kill, which is of course the general idea behind the technique. However, to my knowledge the only notable injuries or deaths caused by choking (without direct intent to injure or kill) have been caused by overexcitable police officers in situations where the result would seem fairly obvious to anyone with experience.
Thanks for the advice and info guys. The comments about injury are of some concern as I'm over the 25 y/old mark now (29 at the end of the year) and I'm already nursing a broken nose from Kung Fu That said, snorri has reassured me a little It might help to make my mind up if I could get some comments about the JJJ club. They claim to be affiliated to the WJJF and Ishin Ryu Ju-Jitsu. The homepage is here - http://www.cbjujitsu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/NEW INDEX.htm
It all depends on the coaches you can find. If you found a JJ coach that had hundreds of fights, a proven track record at training successful competators and a great reputation, JJ would be better than the 19 yr old teaching Judo out of his basement. On the other side, if you found a Judo coach, holding an olympic gold, thats coached olympic competators, then Judo would be the one to go for. Its ALOT easier to find a good Judo coach, than it is to find a good JJ coach. Judo, like boxing, pretty much revolves around competing.
Is cost an issue? The WJJF will cost you a lot of money in unecessary extras, the weapons training is usually kata based, most clubs are non/semi resistant. Judo? Dirt cheap and effective, mix it with a good stand up if you need a complete all round system.
Cost isn't that much of an issue as the JJJ class only seems to be a couple of pound per class. Do you mean I'll get roped into buying other stuff that will cost a fortune (licenses, uniforms etc?) As for the coach, well he seems to have a grounding in several martial arts and is ex army too. Meh, I suppose I will really just have to go see them both
The weapons training is a big money spinner, seminars that teach you the same kata as you would learn in the class, about £30 a go. I think you need 6 for a B/B. The organisation is expert at getting extra money out of the practitioner. B/B clubs etc: The training can be good, it tends to be compliant though, I'm a great believer in hard sparring, it isn't part of the syllabus but I guess this will differ from club to club.
The problem I can foresee with JJ is the stark contrast it has to Kung Fu. The principles are very different in parts. R.E. the resisting opponent - that all depends on what dojo you go to. My old JJ dojo was incredibly tough, and all the techniques were graded against a resisting oponent. However, we had a competition with another local dojo. They were less used to resisting, shall we say. Want to hazzard a guess as to who won? Em
Just a thought, can you do both? The WJJF usually insist on training twice a week. Judo clubs are less formal so you could do once a week at that.
I didn't start until 36, and so far (knock on wood) I have yet to be ingured. Granted I am the oldest guy in the class (my wife is the overall oldest), but if you learn your ukemi (falls) properly, who should be ok. I am definately pro-judo, but plan to start JJJ as soon as my schedule permits. Talk to the instructors, some judo schools emphazise the sport (like ours does) and some schools only briefly go over ground techniques and concentrate most of the time with throws. Luckily ours is 50/50 ground work and throws. So just because its a Judo school, doesn't necessarily mean groundwork. Good luck to you.
I also have the same choice to be made! I can either study judo at http://www.portlandjudo.co.uk OR "Gohsin Ryu Ju-Jutsu" at http://www.mars-nottingham.com Both are similar in price, i could do both though i was thinking of complimenting the training with a local kickboxing class http://www.dragonfreestyle.co.uk/ I will be attending all the places to see which one i prefer. Though i am leaning more toward Judo at the moment. but any opinions would be greatly recieved.
IME the extra stuff you are taught in JJJ ranges from the very useful (Slipping out of the way of punches, throwing strikes)to the quite useful (Foot locks) to the massively useless (Absolutely anything that is taught without resistance). Mainly, the extra stuff seems to fall into that third category, and as such isn't worth considering. For example if you only ever practice wrist locks without resistance at the JJJ club, that doesn't mean it has wristlocks and Judo doesn't, it means the JJJ club wastes some of your time and the Judo club doesn't. Quite often, the JJJ can boil down to bad Judo, with them allowing you to spar under Judo rules but without someone their capable of teaching you in anywhere near as much depth. The extra amounts of depth that a good Judo coach can add to a single technique is quite stunning and something you should see first hand at a good club. Anyway, if you doing Kung Fu anyway, I'd say go with Judo
For you're age I'd do judo then find a good thai gym for your striking art. Get good at grappling and striking in sport then see if you need to take a self defence type martial art. Chances are you won't need to.
Throwing someone on their head is quite a dangerous move found in Judo. In fact, I would say it is one of the most deadly. Spike a guy on his head and see how keen he is to continue to attack you!
I turned up last week but was told it was only starting back this week (they must have closed for the summer holidays or something). I'm off tonight so I'll report back later
