Hi, first of all, sorry for my ignorance, but as you see I'm here to learn I've seen lots of silk reeling training vids on internet and I thought it could be so interesting to begin to train this although I'm training taichi less than a year. But I think all the vids I've seen about silk reeling are Chen style. I'm training the Yang style and I haven't heared about any silk reeling exercises in Yang even though I think "Part horse's mane" or "Grasp the bird's tail" could be used as some kind of silk reeling exercises. Any of you can tell me about some Yang silk reeling exercises (if they exist)? And, training silk reeling with Chen style exercises is possible too although I'm learning Yang? Thanks!
Even the silk-reeling exercises in Chen are a fairly new invention. It used to be you just learned them by doing the form and individual moves from it, which assisted you in understanding and finding them yourself. Pretty much all Northern CMAs have silk-reeling. Chen just emphasizes it more than most.
I believe (cannot find the article right now) that in Tai Chi magazine, one of the heads of Yang family Tai Chi (cannot even remember the name right now) mentioned silk reeling and Yang style Tai Chi. He mentioned something to the effect that Chen style practices Silk reeling and Yang style does not (obviously). Though, he said the reason for this is because traditionally when you learn Yang style the form is painstakingly slow. It is so slow, that silk reeling should already be within in the form. Since there are not really any "explosive" movements in traditional family Yang style, the silk reeling is practiced in the form. If you would like I could try to hunt down the article in a previous issue.
Unfortunately the website will not allow you to read the article, though there is a small bit about it so I will type it: https://www.netflyers.net/taichi/issue.php?id=6 The interview is with Yang Zhenduo TC (Tai Chi magazine): Is there any Chan Ssu Jing (silk reeling energy) in Yang Style? YZD: The Yang style does not have such a word as Chan Ssu Jing. Chen style is unique to that. But in the Yang style what we have is twisting and continuous motion. I has the Chan Ssu Jing element, but we don't call it Chan Ssu jing. I was confusing this Q & A section from the same article: TC: Does standing meditation have any value for the Yang stylist? Is it part of the Yang Tradition? YZD: The standing postures people do might be secondary postures to improve performance. But Yang style itself, doing it slowly, a person has enough time to think and react to it. I have never practiced these postures. But I don't think it is a bad thing to practice them. sorry for the bit of confusion, but what do you want I read the article 3 years ago...
Great Taoquan! No thanks to you I can save and use the silk reeling exercises time in another kind of exercises And about standing meditation... I'll ask about it later, first what I'm doing, hehe
Hi Zuarko, There's a wealth of information here I also practice a variation of the Yang style. I say "variation" because each teacher seems to put their own twist on things, no pun intended. The only silk reeling exercises I was familiar with were concerned with torso rotation. That is, learning to co-ordinate the turning of the upper body with the weight-shift of the lower body. It is very easy, for example, for the forward knee to move out of alignment above the foot, which compromises the integrity of the knee joint, which is a hinge, not a ball-joint. The exercises I was shown loosened my waist nicely, and enabled me to reign in "wandering knee", but there was little emphasis on forearm rotation. "Grasp the bird's tail" does involve significant forearm rotation, but this depends upon how you've been taught to perform that sequence. "Part horse's mane", as taught to me, did not (still doesn't) employ any forearm rotation. Why not? I don't know...perhaps someone else could clue me in. I would recommend that you do both, as silk-reeling will affect the way you practise, and lead to better and more effective execution. Although reeling silk is present in the Yang style that I learned, you kinda have to look for it, especially when beginning. You're taught where everything should be at the beginning and end of each posture, but not necessarily made aware of how the hands got to that position. Know what I mean? WHY is this forearm rotation so important? I'm sure there are many here more experienced than I who could best answer that! But I'll give it a go.... On a basic level, one strives to have the whole body moving as a unit, or resting as a unit. As far as body mechanics are concerned, I would guess that a rotating forearm would be more relaxed than one that is not - put another way, you would be relaxing more muscles and tendons than you might if you were not rotating. As far as striking is concerned, I'd guess that a strike that has a rotational quality to it will do more than merely strike - apart from the obvious impact, it will apply a damaging twisting force upon your opponent's facia. Others here know more about this than me. Please jump in at any time, guys. Check out Joanna Zorya's Martial Rotation dvd - you will find a wealth of information and applications within it. What you've been practising will come to life. I have studied Yang style for years, and my execution and awareness have made a quantum leap since studying and practising Joanna's drills. I've put my time in as far as downloading sample clips from YouTube, clips from "Yang Applications" type dvds. Nothing I've seen has impressed me more than Joanna's drills - they'll keep you interested, stimulated and busy for years. Hope that helps, LQ
Hi LQ - it should - everything should. As Adam Hsu says ALL authentic Kung Fu (/Wushu) movements must contain chansijin. You can either perform Part horse's mane or diagonal flying as an oblique palm up then palm down chop - I have actually seen some line drawings of a Yang family member doing diagonal flying this way - I can't remember who though. OR you can do the movement palm down then up. The first is good for chopping hard down on someone's forearm vs. a low strike "its called xiao - to pare / whittle and it makes your victim yell xiiiaaaaoooow!!!!" followed by an ulna chop into / through the throat. The second variant uses the back of the forearm to deflect a low strike followed by a rollover palm up strike, e.g. with the radius or a palm up fist. Rotation must be constant and should involve the whole arm, not just the forearm. To accomplish this necessitates allowing the elbow to float freely - sure it should hang, but sometimes the hang is as much as 89º out to the side. Yang Jwing Ming seems to teach push hands in such a way that during a rollback, your hand rotates after it has passed your centre line. To my understanding this is a simplification of reeling silk. I see it as an admission of defeat to teach this way. Perhaps it is because one can teach students to reel silk all lesson every lesson for years and many still don't get it. I've had students for years who when asked "where's the reeling silk in that movement?" will still say things like "oh - you mean the twisting thing." "Yes," I say "ALWAYS 'the twisting thing'." The Chen writings are hot on it. "All movements inwards or outwards reel silk" (as I don't have the Chinese version of this written anywhere, I suspect it could instead read "All movements flow or counterflow reel silk"). Also: "Taijiquan is twisting - if you do not know twisting you do not know Taijiquan." Anyway, limb rotation is really important and as Zheng Manqing says "if a style strays from the classics, the style is wrong." As we say to our students, if you ever see us doing a movement without it in, we're just being lazy - you should always put it in, and we don't care who you see not doing it, you always should." Have I convinced anyone yet? Oh - and thanks for the plug, LQ
basics are important zuarko. It's in cloudhands. do a lot of that .. out heel to fingers. in fingers to heel. the turning (silk reeling) that is. that is all it is really, any form worth its salt will have turning from various joints through the form.. arms, waist, hips etc. http://www2.gol.com/users/ddh/eng/f_08_drawingsilk.html I'd personally say bagua was more about developing deep twisting in the body. That is maybe overstating it a little as well as my preffered choice of wording.. You want to feel kwa not just in the hips but all over in tai chi - this describes the stretch and turn in the connective tissue throughout the body, not just around the hips joints and lower dong area for example. but you also want to bear in mind peng, ji, an, lu primarily. If you focus too much on twisting your joints you may sacrifice other things. As you know there are a fair few focus points in a ta chi form.. Apparantly the only English word CMC said was "balance".. doesn't sound like bad advice really.. It's a basic part of many CMA. Not that big a deal as it is already contained in many forms and systems. Though a lot of tai chi has unfortunately not been taught martially. happy training . edit. It's a pretty good idea to pull out a few choice moves from the form like cloudhands and slant flying and use them as supplement to focus on rotation in and out, circularity of movement etc. You can then carry that over.
Hi cloudhandz, Can you see how quite a few practitioners freeze the rotation throughout the forms though? (for example, moving the limbs through space then twisting them, or twisting them then moving them.) That's the thing I was taught was wrong in spite of the fact that it is extremely common. It's different for sword work where you might need to flip the blade over before drawing / cutting / thrusting with it, but for empty hand, I believe it is always better to be constantly rotating so that whenever contact is made, the opponent's limb is already being deflected or drawn and every strike is like a spinning arrow or a "spinning roller of doom!"
Hi jkz, I know, I know! I'm telling everyone! I've been looking at it, and other postures, figured I'd would have to change the way I do it. I'll come back to the issue of "changes"... Good. I want them to yell....in Chinese, if possible That would probably stop the yelling.. Thanks for the app tips. My mistake, I shouldn't have relied on the word "forearm". Rest assured, my whole arm is involved. That's why these variants in form frustrate me, which brings me back to the issue of making changes. It kinda makes one question the validity of some forms, does it not? If I were to modify Part horse's mane and every other posture that lacked reeling silk - and modify each of them in more than one way - then wouldn't one end up practising a bewildering and impracticable number of forms? ...and I haven't even mentioned the transitional moves between postures yet. Not that I'm against form practise....but you get my drift. Yes, me! Your Martial Rotation dvd is excellent, and deserves to be plugged, simple as that. LQ
Hi jk i agree. theres a lot a lot of variance around. in some ways it's interesting that there are different ways to go about things etc. There is so much that can be added in..for example. But what you say about disjointed movements is interesting and a valid points. the form being one whole movement without breaks is important. one thing leading into another via intention.. continuous rotation through the whole movement certainly is something that takes some attention and is a question of timing/ coordination of combined movements. Alex Kozma described to me not long ago baguas live step single change palm as an exercise in co-ordination. And theres a lot of rotatin' going on in that one!! Yea ideally getting a spiralling thing going on is great. silk reeling is vital to that, the joint rotation in combination with a wave type force through the body and circularity of movement can certainly change the quality of an impacting force! Su Dong Chen for example seems to heavily emphasize waving motion in his tai chi. And links that to the opening move (large, medium, small) - in that the essence of tai chi is all in the opening move. See just a bit of waving yourself around. Tai chi is just an arm waving exercise after all! linkies tomorrow yes?
I was taught a few ways with Chansijing, 1) was the rotation should follow through 2) even though the rotation follows through, it may not "appear" to keep moving with a rotation, meaning the arm itself may not keep rotating, but now the waist has taken up the rotation aspect. So, say you start with part wild horse's mane, there are a few times we perform it within our form. One is with arm rotation, the other is with minimal arm rotation, but the waist begins to take over once the arm reaches full rotation. This Martial application is twofold, the single arm rotation works more for CQC where the MA may not have time to react terribly quickly and a simple arm rotation is effective and simple enough to quickly change an angle, esp. if the attack is fast. (this does not mean however, the waist is not incorporated here) The arm to the waist method is more effective for a bit more of a "distance" attack of maybe a few feet away. This can be similar to what you may see an Aikido practitioner do, they may "block" a punch with a slight rotation, but then continue to move through the punch to guide the attacker to another position. Chansijing is typically practiced (much like Tai Chi chuan) on a "large" scale and a "small" scale, to where a master of Chansijing can neutralize an attack on any portion of the body by using it's techniques.
I say yea except that in yang the realationship is in the twist going threw both the forearm/hands an the calf/feet as how yang does alignment with the elbow to knee(relationship). I have went so far as to change where the center of my foot to be the pivot point both in Yang and in Chen Taiji. Yes this aftects rollback. This is why i still see chen in yang alot when i watch someone do the forms. Excellent post jkzorya. Says a lot!
Wow! This is the first time I post something that makes everyone answer such long posts!! Yep! I see, and I've been looking for old posts and is increidble. I think I've understood Sil Reeling better now, even in Yang style With all this new information what I'll do will be to do more Cloud Hands. And I'll try to twist instead of some "robotic" movement of first hand, then arms, then body and... you know (I don't do it, but I'll take care, hehe) I'll try to get the Joanna Zorya's Martial Rotation dvd. I don't like too much to learn from videos or books, but I think learning drills is different (Well, everything not so long) Me too! Oh yes, and I'll try with more trainging and more training and more training... and I'll try to learn more english so I can understand everything and say more things, hehe. Maybe I'll post myself on youtube so you can say something about my movements With all I've read, I fear your rotating fists!
I just thought I could post up a quick run through of my main linked form sequence for anyone who is interested in seeing how the reeling silk rotation looks in it. I think of it as a bit of an "unfinished symphony" because it is always open to changes, variations and polishing. I only have a small space so it is made of edited chunks and the angle has to change a bit to see everything. This is my Youtube debut. I'm only going to leave the film up until the end of the weekend though. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-4vSIaVels"]YouTube[/ame]
The majority of the movements of Tai Chi are natural. If the forearm or any other part of the body is doing something at some particular point, it should be doing that according to the body mechanics of the human body. You can think of your body as folds of cloth that are surrounding.......oh....how about the blades of a mixer? Everyone should know what a kitchen mixer blade looks like. When the blades move around, you would see the cloth wrapped around them move and shift as the high and low parts of the blade rotated underneath the cloth. The muscles and all the soft tissue stuff in your body should act that way with your bones during Tai Chi. As your bones turn, your musculature will flop this way and that not because you told it to, but because that is where they naturally go when your bones are holding the particular position that they are. Physics. It is all about physics. You don't have to learn physics to be good at martial arts. Most good martial artists don't even know what physics are. But if you want to understand martial arts, understand why Tai Chi or Ba Gua were invented and why they are performed the way they are, then you need to know about physics. I cannot say that physics makes me a better martial artists. But mentally I feel better or feel more confident in what I am doing because I feel I understand why I am doing it, instead of just doing what some guy tells me like I am a robot or something. I believe, someone could correct me, that you will find it is possible to generate and deliver more power by rotation than linear means. I can't do the equations anymore, it has been way too long for that. ;P But if one of you young guys still in school know what I am talking about, maybe you can do the equations and the math to prove this? If I am right. ;0
there is a much, much easier way to test this than doing equations.. where do you live? However i believe in descriptive words I understand, not physics equations i don't understand. It's a simple idea anyways, even i can get.. So Sure, a bit of rotation through the body adds a bit of power due to the longer pathway it takes to travel as well as say a differing quality of impact. The external measured distance from a to b is the same. From your heel to your hand say. But through rotating of limbs and pivots the travel within is made less linear. Eg. If you straighten out a winding tributary it is a longer length a to b, end to end. The increased length of travel allows for greater body power to accumalate by the time it reaches its destination. By ustilizing chansi jin you effectively create that longer, winding, turning tributory for your water (power) to travel along. That's the basic theory of it as i remember..
Grandmaster Jou Tsung Hwa said this: "Picture a straight hurricane wind and the force it carries and the damage it can do. Now take into account the destruction of a Tornado, even at less speeds a tornado has greater destruction because of centrifugal (sp?) force."
