Yang Short Form And Bow Stance

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by franksv, Dec 20, 2005.

  1. franksv

    franksv Valued Member

    Hello

    I ve been learning the yang short form for a short while now,from two different guys.Niether is a sifu but both have been doing tc for a few years(one more than the other).

    One guy likes the bow stance to have the back leg slightly bent,with back foot about 45 degrees.The other fellow likes the back leg straight,with the foot straight forward.The second way takes much more foot pivoting to do the form(when I say form,I am only up to the first single whip).The first way seems more natural to me(back leg bent/45 degrees)easier to move and do the form.What do you guys/gals think?How where you taught?

    Frank
     
  2. fugepilot

    fugepilot New Member

    IMHO the 'first' description sounds more like it, given the 'foot at 45deg' is also displaced sufficiently to the side. :Angel:
     
  3. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    The rear foot in a front bow stance should be angled 45 degrees, how are you gonna emit powere with your backfoot pointing forward?

    The bag leg should be straight but not locked.
     
  4. franksv

    franksv Valued Member

    Thank you,you both have been very helpful.
     
  5. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    Np man,

    If you got any other questions, feel free to ask.

    Oh and the channel between the front and rear foot should be 1-2 fists in our style of TCC.

    You dont want your legs crossed, but some styles even have the heels lined up.

    Good luck with your training
     
  6. Richardni

    Richardni Valued Member

    id say the 1st way, it is more in line with the classics.
     
  7. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Straightened limbs are vulnerable and lack mobility imo
    avoid, avoid... :cool:
     
  8. franksv

    franksv Valued Member

    With the back leg slightly bent it does give the feeling of a coiled spring.Both feet forward with a straight leg feels off.Unmobile and rigid.Plus this way tends to make the knee sore and not in a good way.Just my observation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2005
  9. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    Learn from only from one teacher at time!

    Which "yang short form" you are leatning? The Yang Family (49 postures), the Cheng Man Ching (37 postures) or the Standard Taijiquan (24 postures)?

    Different lineages teache different foot positions and weight distribution! I preffer doing the form with the rear leg slightly bent with back foot about 45 degrees.
     
  10. franksv

    franksv Valued Member

    One of these guys is a student of the other.It is not a formal class,more like a group.I believe its the 37 posture they are showing me although,and I m not sure its the same,they do the long version 108 posture.Which I am not sure I am going to go past the 37 because I also practice Hsing-I 5 element and I feel there is a ton of material here already with enough to keep me busy for years to come.Since Aug,I am only up to the first single whip and I am learning and refining at a slow pace.
     
  11. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    The Bow and Reverse Bow stance I was taught places both feet at a 45 degree angle, with the line of my front toe lined up with my back heel... The back leg is always straight, which is what makes it a bow. at least by my preference.

    I find both at a 45 degree enable me to open the front foot "gate" and find a stable root for kicking. Then again.. I do mantis.. But stance training should be a constant in any CMA from what I know..


    As my sifu will say during stance training "There is a constant battle between stability and mobility"
     
  12. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    I would never keep the back leg straight, or point the back foot forward, both are really bad news for the knee, and you get way more mobility and spring from a bent back leg, should you need to move faster. A locked out joint has lost the capacity to move in that particular direction, and is rigid - not soft (relative term) as TC should be. I train CMC 37 and 108 forms btw.
     
  13. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    Well figure this.. if you're in a bow stance.. theres almost no weight on your back leg.. How fast can you spring off a leg that isn't loaded?

    I tend to move much faster off the line with my front leg pushing when advancing forward. Then again I'm an external fighter at the moment.. Perhaps ya'll IMA's do things a bit different...
     
  14. Uncle Bill

    Uncle Bill Valued Member

    Straight rear leg with the back foot pointing straight ahead is characteristic of Wu Style rather than Yang Style.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2005
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Well,a lot of variation in rear foot angle in Yang systems over the years.Oftimes this depends on the width of the stance.The rear leg should never be actually straight,tho' it may look that way to an observer,or be very obviously bent.Totally straight= locked,something to avoid both for mobility and power issuing.Even in modern(Cheng-fu) Yang,if you see pix of him over the years his foot and knee angles vary.Tung,Ying-ch'ieh's version has the rear foot out at 80-85 degrees,which require a very open hip and leg coiling.If you're doing Cheng,Man-ch'ing's 37 then it should be 45,with a visibly bent knee but NOT collapsed inward.(If you're doing it in a very high stance the bend may not be so obvious).The heels should be approx shoulder width.New Wu style is done pretty upright with the leg looking very straight and often(depending on the variant)the rear foot is almost straight ahead.I wouldn't prefer that angle myself,but they certainly can issue power.DarkJester's both feet at 45 is ideal for actual combat and is actually the way some older Yang systems were done.Two teachers of the same thing teaching very different angles?Somebody is making an error here as regards this particular form regardless of what variant it is unless the stance height and/or foot width is also changed for a specific purpose.Some things are executed differently at different stages of training,but they shouldn't be taught at the same time.A beginning student should receive the same info from a senior student as the main instructor is imparting.
     
  16. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    Sorry to disagree, my weight is very much in the back leg!
     
  17. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    Then you're not in a bow stance. Sounds like a Xubu stance to me.. to where it appears the weight is on the front but is shifted to back.. and the rear foot is at more than a 45 degree angle.
     
  18. franksv

    franksv Valued Member

    Thanks everyone for posting.I really appreciate everyones input.I did not mean to spark a debate but,I feel pretty good about asking a question with so much depth that many folks thought valid enough to chime in.You have all helped me greatly as this question has just suddenly come up in my training and I m not due to meet with my tc instructor until after the holidays.Being a guy that trains everyday,this was a borderline crisis and I did'nt want to bother my instructor over the holidays with something that I felt I should have addressed much earlier(Im kind of embarASSed on my lack of detail).Please,carry on with thoughts and comments.There is much to consider and ponder here as this is the foundation of the the art,if you don't have this down the whole form will seem off,trust me.
     
  19. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    Sigh - as I said in an earlier post: "a rose by any other name"..... we would call our stance 'bow and arrow', or 'Tan Pien'. Never heard of Xubu. We almost never focus the weight in the front foot. :love:
     
  20. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    What branch of TJQ do you do? In our kwoon (which teaches Yang old style) Xubu is called an empty or insubstantial stance. Front at 45, the back at 90. In this manner the back leg is loaded with the majority of the weight.

    I can scan some information for you when I get home to show you specific terminology and pictures in reference so it'd be easier to understand :)
    But yeah.. a rose by any other name.. Touche ;)
     

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