X-block/scissors concepts for speed

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Rebel Wado, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    For many good reasons, X-block technique has a really bad reputation these days in martial arts. See this eleven year old thread for a lot of the reasoning: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18325

    However, in pretty much all the threads, there hasn't even been so much as a hint about what I believe is an important principle behind scissor techniques that was taught to me. That principle is that wrists together is faster than wrists apart when performing crossing techniques.

    Whether that crossing technique is part of gunting, arm bar, two on one grab, rear naked choke, wrist lock, etc., when you cross at the wrists, it is faster.

    Tell me if what I learned is common knowledge so obvious that no one ever talks about it, or it is knowledge either completely wrong or completely neglected/lost over time?
     
  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I've just reviewed a knife defence video I did last year and I seem to favour the wrists apart.

    From 0.45.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R11mAyXGKw"]Knife Defence - YouTube[/ame]

    Other than a reactional movement against the knife I don't have any "X block" in my syllabus, but I would favour wrists apart because the I would have thought the upper arm is then faster for parrying, as I've done in the video.

    I don't like the x block because it always seems to stop once the block is done.
     
  3. idols11

    idols11 Valued Member

    What do you think about doing the X-block as a transition to a one handed grab, freeing up your other arm to strike or block?
     
  4. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I can see that working without a problem.

    I think we could all block/parry, then grab/strike better.

    It's all in the drilling.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Might be semantics but you bring your wrists together at 1:56 when speed is important. Imagine just doing that from the start.

    Also just technique differences, but I prefer left on top, right on bottom in that situation. You have left on bottom and right on top, in which case I prefer a "clam shell" or "butterfly" two-on-one grab, rather than crossing the arms.

    Thanks for the post.
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Are you thinking of an X-block as a particular technique or as any technique where the arms cross by each other (e.g. scissor technique)?

    The x-block technique is with the wrists together because speed is needed. In this case, your x-block must strike to stun or unbalance the opponent. After that, transitioning to a one handed grab is quite feasible. I will try to find a video of this, if not, I'll have to film it myself.

    The crossing arms or scissor techniques, are a broader category, and the wrists are brought together only when speed is needed. In these cases, you usually have the one handed grab already and you are using the scissor technique to cut or transition to a two handed grab or something else like a rear naked choke.
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I finally found a video close to the x-block strike I was talking about. It is basically Morote Uke with the wrists brought closer together. You get a double knuckle hit that can really stun the opponent's arm.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVC7fTxZoe4"]One Minute Bunkai: Yoko Morote Ude Uke #1 - YouTube[/ame]

    Like the above but slightly different angles and wrists closer together.
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's like any other technique. Drill it and you'll make it work.

    I personally though don't like it, but that's maybe the way it's demonstrated in the video.

    A massive gap for an easy counter, no angling off, the technique can be done one handed and I don't really see the need to tie up both hands.

    All that said I'm not a Karateka.
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Few people like Morote Uke (assisted block) or Juji Uke (x-block). Combining the two to create the double knuckle strike for stunning is not very common outside of limb destructions/gunting. Otherwise, it is usually two separate strikes to the head or body.

    I should also clarify that with X-block bringing the wrists together for speed is not the end of the technique. Bringing the wrists together is the transition point for what technique comes next, whether that be a strike, grab, or something else like a choke.

    Here is the softer, open hand version of the movements. The wrists would not have to come together for speed as much because the speed is already there from relaxation and fluid movements. Unlike the more "caveman" karate version. Edit (correction): However, he does bring the wrists closer together, which makes it even quicker.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-44_YC2qlU"]Grand Master Robert Castro ESKABO DAAN - Empty Hands 2 - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  10. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I agree with Simon that it's all in the drilling.
    As you've now opened it to 2 techniques , morote uke , to me , is simply a simultaneous block and strike anything much more than this is just "shoehorning" stuff in imo.
    Juji uke/x block is a little more versatile in my mind , against a low line attack it can be a simultaneous gedan barai and strike , against mid or high line attacks I see it as more a catching/trapping motion , this said , a lot of movement needs to be incorporated.
    I feel the dislike of the technique stems from a history of bad application/demonstration ie juji uke square against a straight front kick.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  11. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I have this drill in my own syllabus, but refer to it as Tapi Tapi from FMA.

    It's obviously all in the terminology, as wouldn't refer to any of it as x blocking.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Here is a version of the Mano Mano Tapi Tapi from and FMA viewpoint.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atx7h5n61g0"]Mano Mano Tapi Tapi basic drill - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is my own video using similar during a knife training attribute drill.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tDyoWfZTvU"]Attribute training - YouTube[/ame]
     
  13. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Kind of along your line of versatility of the X-block, this thread was not intended to be about technique but was suppose to be about principles and concepts. The techniques are just interpretations of the principles or ways of illustrating them.

    Scissor techniques all have some common elements. One is that the arms (or legs) cross each other in a trapping motion. The X-block only uses scissor elements if it includes a trapping motion.

    This video does not have the trapping motion:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-44_YC2qlU"]Grand Master Robert Castro ESKABO DAAN - Empty Hands 2 - YouTube[/ame]

    The parries are not scissor techniques or x-blocks.

    I think this is where I didn't communicate very well. Let me try to clarify. With scissor techniques, the closer the wrists are to each other at the point the arms cross, the quicker the transition to the next move will be.

    I was trying to say (if this is true), it applies to all or at least most situations where the arms cross. Look at techniques that are not X-blocks, like the karate outward block, the arms cross near the wrists. This is said to be to counter a wrist grab, which seems to make sense, but what I'm saying is that the transition to the next move comes faster when you cross the arms closer to the wrists than say the elbows.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Here is an example of the speed theory with scissor techniques:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEZS_wBFt8"]Gracie Knife Defense - YouTube[/ame]

    The above technique is very slow until the point that the wrists are brought closer together. From that point on, the technique is faster.
     
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    The spear system has some interesting stuff about x "blocks" as part of the human flinch response. The argument being that it is something that we tend to do automatically - therefore it would make sense to train how to fight from an x "block position".

    Hung gar as a an art is full of x "block" and scissor movements. I put the block in quotes because i find it more helpful to think of creating openings rather than blocking. For me the particular value of the x counter is that it creates openings to move to the inside, outside, and inwards towards the target, all from the one starting position. This makes it a good position to create an exit and run away.

    Humans are excellent runners - This might be explain why the x "block" flinch response evolved because it allows us to use our running abilities to survive.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I have read that Hung Gar is full of scissor movements and crossing blocks. Seems to be a major theme in many martial arts from southern China. It was actually one of the books I read about martial arts that mentioned scissor techniques being used in Kung Fu systems that got me interested in them.

    From my Kajukenbo background, pretty much all of the X-blocks are actually part of choke holds or locking techniques. They are pretty much never a block of any kind except when we start to look at the FMA influences in the art.

    I came to realize that x-block is separate from scissor techniques although in a generic sense they can look the same. An x-block that then uses scissor movements is a scissor technique, but an x-block could also be a strike or a block and not actually be a scissor technique. Conversely, a scissor technique can be something completely different from an x-block.

    Probably the first concept I learned about an x-block in unarmed application was it was sort of a universal block that covered a large area like a shield. For instance, on a side x-block, one arm covered the high line and the other arm covered the low line with the arms often connected near the elbows.

    One of the first concepts I learned about scissor techniques is if you want to move to a trap or locking technique quickly, you needed your wrists closer together.

    Here is an example of an x-block from ESKABO:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FXeOcLxSx0"]Lessons from a Grandmaster Eps 4: X Block with weapon to figure 4 (Filipino Martial Arts) - YouTube[/ame]

    The x-block in this case is not a scissor technique but it is a block/strike. The scissor technique is actually used to apply the figure 4 arm lock at the end of the technique (when the hands/wrists are moved together).

    I think this is important to consider for those that want to use an x-block to trap or lock, the classical x-block with wrists and even arms separated is often too slow to actually lock, although it can serve as a large shield as you strike with your body. To lock quickly, apply the x-block with wrists touching. This gives you very little margin for error, however, so you should consider stunning or unbalancing before locking.
     
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member


    I tried something like that today. Me and my Hema instructor were talking about concepts and how fencing concepts can be seen in other arts. So he told me to defend the inside line and being that I have done that, or something like it, before in other arts, I did. He threw a 1/2 I got the first set of parry/parry off, but his 2(for the second part of 1/2) was a low straight that connected with my liver.. ouch. So I am unsure how you would get that second parry/parry off. Unless I am just to novice yet and did not move quick enough to get the second off. I remember my hand was still connected to his 1, when the 2 hit my liver, so my timing must stink.

    His first comment was about how weak defending with only hands are, and that I failed to move my body.
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah, sounds like something I have been caught with too.

    All body full body movement comes from the legs/footwork. So maybe you are missing the lateral movement footwork that is part of the exercise.The footwork in the ESKABO video is attacker steps 45 degrees to their right, defender steps to his right 45 degrees to mirror. It isn't exact mirror footwork though. Because defender moves second, defender must move off the line of attack and then slightly to the inside of the attack arc. To me it always feels like I'm moving away from the attack sideways, even though the distance is closing. Distance is really dependent on how sharply you cut the angles.

    The footwork is similar to this (notice the subtle step with the right foot) video:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii7PfcRZQVc"]Muay Thai Technique: Catch Body Kick And Sweep - YouTube[/ame]

    As for the combination, after you parry the first attack you counter attack. However, if a second attack is coming, your counter attack becomes a block/strike or parry.

    Edit: If the opponent comes in too quickly, from the side step, I've found switching to corner step footwork comes naturally. Corner step footwork is like stepping around a corner.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Kframe,

    I was just thinking about the principle, "do not get hit" and how you were getting hit by the second attack.

    Footwork is part of what can help with "do not get hit", but there are other principles that help too. Sounds like maybe you aren't able to "stun or unbalance on contact."

    That's part of why I choose the catching of a Muay Thai round kick to show the footwork. When you catch the kick, you pull/push to unbalance the opponent, then you kick out their supporting leg before they can recover and regain their balance.

    In reference to the Eskabo video, the parries are actually called traps. These traps need to stun or unbalance on contact. They way they can stun is by striking, the way they can unbalance is by cutting. The cutting motion becomes a grab. In other words, your left hand should be grabbing the opponent's right wrist and rotating their arm. This will make it very hard for them to throw a second strike.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68BfURttQFg"]Lessons from a Grandmaster Eps 3:Double Trap Part 3 of 3 (Filipino Martial Arts) - YouTube[/ame]

    If you fail to grab, then go back to the first principle and do not get hit, using your other arm to cover and footwork to evade.
     

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