Wu Shu Kwan

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Kikaku, Aug 5, 2005.

  1. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Apologies for the delay in approving your post, it should be visible now.
     
  2. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    OK,semantics. Not a CMA but Chinese Kickboxing. Or "traditional" Chinese Kickboxing.Of which it is neither. It's a hybrid system w/a TKD base. How is that a Chinese anything?

    So no,not just IMHO. Hmmmm....first you "correct" me as regards me saying it's not a CMA and then you say they don't market it exclusively as a CMA.Which maketh thy correction moot,do it not?;)


    "Chinese Boxing" was westerners' description of Chinese systems.
    Originated in the 1800s mainly as a result of the observation of solo training routines.In China.They called them shadowboxing,also.That's about as much as westerners were going to see other than a very few East V West formal encounters.Non-Chinese weren't witness to formal challenges and in the pre-WWII 20th century most aliens weren't attending the CMA tourneys.


    "the oldest name used by the Westerners to describe the systematic and effective Chinese art" ---

    "Chinese Boxing is indeed a traditional martial art"-

    They wrote those. They're doing something new and not predominately Chinese. (Since it's new it certainly isn't "traditional",either. "Traditional" is a bit of a nebulous term anyway,tho').

    I fail to see how marketing it as "Chinese" Kickboxing or telling students it's "traditional Chinese" kb is truth in advertising.

    I tell ya,it keeps me awake at night.

    :zzz:

    Well,maybe not.




    An aside-- I just found this humorous.

    "Chinese Boxing, commonly known in the West as practical Kung Fu,"-- that's a real common term? Who commonly adds the word "practical"?


    Hey,sorry I didn't answer sooner.Missed that you'd replied.
     
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The term "Chinese boxing" should be "traditional Chinese martial arts (TCMA) - different from the modern Wushu dancing arts". The same as "Chinese wrestling" which should be Shuai Chiao (or Shuai Jiao). It's just like a Chinese guy to give himself a American name "John" for easy of communication.
     
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I have been away from the forum for a while and the conversation seems to have heated up.

    My last contact with wushu Kwan was 30 years ago. I do not know what they are teaching now or how they are currently marketing themselves.

    My personal experience of wushu kwan is 30 years old.

    I found the standard of teaching to be generally good. (although they had a gung ho attitude to ballistic stretching and NO PAIN NO GAIN that, in my view, lead to some unnecessary training injuries).

    I have no doubt that my instructor cared about his students.

    At the time they taught mainly points sparring. (Since I left I have heard that they have produced some proficient full contact kick boxers.)

    I have no problem with what they teach or how they teach it – different people want different things from martial arts and if they have what you want - great.

    What I object to is that at I was looking for real kung fu and I was told that it was the real thing. If I hadn’t moved away and seen and experienced real kung fu I would not know the difference. I would have spent 30 years practicing a lie. In fact I would probably be teaching it.

    There are organisations set up in the 70’s and 80’s on the back of Bruce Lee phenomenon that do not teach what they profess to teach, there are generations of instructors who now pass on the lies believing them to be truth. The problem for the individual is that although many will acknowledge that this is the case. Very few people are willing to discuss it.

    • Because it would create a storm of recrimination that would damage everybody involved.

    • Because You have no reason to believe me, or any person or organisation over another

    The only half solution that I can think of is to look at people practicing forms and applications on the internet. Look at everything, internal arts, external arts, Chinese, Japanese, Philippine . Look for how similar or different they are to what you practice. And make your own mind up (but keep part of it open.)
     
  5. rideforever

    rideforever New Member

    Here are some forms that WSK do. The videos on youtube are very similar if not identical, although I think WSK changes these forms a little to make them more practical. Not sure about the 3rd video.

    First Dan Chang Quan
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n_ZKaM6ZZQ"]First Dan Chang Quan - YouTube[/ame]

    Er Duan Chang Quan
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y-NkCEcwMw"]Er Duan Changquan - YouTube[/ame]

    Ji Chang Quan
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTJ5QyqqwCM"]Wushu Chu Ji Chang Quan åˆçº§é•¿æ‹³ - YouTube[/ame]
     
  6. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    In what way do they change the forms to "make them more practical?"

    have you trained with WSK?
     
  7. rideforever

    rideforever New Member

    Yes, for 5 years although it was a long time back now.
    In these youtube forms, occasionally the hand position does not look quite right, I believe WSK has changed some palm strikes into fists for instance.
    There is semi-contact sparring with headgear and gloves at the end of a WSK training session, so the dancy element of wu shu is downplayed in the forms.
    I could possibly be wrong about those minor though, it has been many years.
     
  8. Soonmixdin

    Soonmixdin New Member

    Hi guys! I'm still lurking and have a watch on this topic so I'll answer the questions raised. I am a black belt in this style and am still training so my knowledge is still current.

    I have to conceded that a number of the WSK forms are (very obviously) derived from these Changquan Wu Shu forms. Rideforever is correct in that some of the hand positions and strikes have been altered, but the basic movements of each form are very similar.

    I can only imagine that Grandmaster Chang was at some point, a student of Wu Shu but also learned other (harder) techniques during his studies which is what he has included when devising the revised forms he uses for the WSK syllabus. I think that the syllabus also incorporates elements of ITF TKD into it, along with the Wu Shu stuff as we also do fixed sparring with partners during a grading examination.
     
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    When you say wu shu what do you mean? Way back when the wu shu kwan organisation started Wu shu was used to mean practical Chinese boxing. This meaning has now been replaced with the meaning that refers to sport wu shu.

    Is wu shu kwan selling itself as practical Chinese boxing or as sport wu shu? These days?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  10. Soonmixdin

    Soonmixdin New Member

    It's still promoting itself as a practical CB school, I have had many a bruise and bump to prove it from the full contact sparring....which all grades are encouraged to participate in!!

    That said, the black belts in our class are taught to not go "full on" with beginners when sparring but to test them and coach them so they gain confidence and good technique.
     
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I have met some highly skilled practical kick-boxers from wu shu kwan. People who can happily stand there ground in the ring. But kick boxing and Chinese boxing are not the same thing.

    If Wu Shu Kwan changed its name and sold itself as Master Chang's kickboxing I would not have a problem with it. In fact I would recommend it to people wanting to learn kickboxing.

    But my problem with wu shu kwan was that it sold itself as traditional Chinese kunfu and it was not. From what you write it looks like it is still doing this.
     
  12. Soonmixdin

    Soonmixdin New Member

    I don't know where you got the impression it is being sold as traditional Chinese Kung Fu, because it isn't.
     
  13. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    To me both your comments and what is written on their website gives me the impression that it is being sold as Traditional kungfu.

    Link to site

    http://www.wushukwan.com/about_us.html

    Extract from the "about us page." My emphasis.

    "What is Chinese Boxing?

    Chinese Boxing, commonly known in the West as practical Kung Fu, is the oldest name used by the Westerners to describe the systematic and effective Chinese art of self-defence when they first encountered it and were fascinated by what they saw. Of course, Chinese Kickboxing rather than Chinese Boxing would have been the more appropriate description, if the word kickboxing had existed then. Chinese Boxing is indeed a traditional martial art and not Western boxing where two prize-fighters with gloves and in shorts fighting in a ring."

    In my opinion this is misleading as, in my opinion wu shu kwan teach good kickboxing, they teach practical self defense, they teach how to fight, but they do not teach traditional kung fu.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  14. Soonmixdin

    Soonmixdin New Member

    Tom, you're talking rubbish by saying that the website sells it as a traditional Chinese martial art. It doesn't do that and neither have I ever said specifically that it was in any of my posts either.

    I'm beginning to come to the slow realisation that the post by yourself and other "traditional" Kung Fu exponents about this not being authentic Kung Fu, is simply because this thread was originally posted in the MAP KF subsection. That wasn't my fault but as a currently training black belt with WSK I thought it would be helpful to have some more recent input from a qualified student of the style.

    So sayonara chaps!! Moderators, could you please move this thread to a more appropriate section? And before any jokers come up with suggestions, perhaps the Kickboxing one would be best.
     
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Soonmixdin, Tom has a right to his opinion. But it is only that. An opinion. And perhaps not a highly shared one at that. (I haven't had time to fully survey the thread, but a cursory search indicates that at least a couple of people feel the same way.) So I don't think there's any need for you to shuffle off, if that's what you're planning. Your insights have been very valuable so far. No need to let a disagreement change that. It's a discussion forum. These things can be discussed.
     
  16. Soonmixdin

    Soonmixdin New Member

    Hey there! I wasn't planning on leaving, but perhaps I wasn't clear - I meant to say sayonara to the KF section chaps with the hope this thread would get relocated to the KB section. What are your thoughts on a move for this topic?
     
  17. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Ah, I see. Good.

    I think that, based on the name and the fact that its "kungfuness" is still a topic of debate, this is probably the right place for it at the moment. My reasoning being that, if people come here looking for information on wushu kwan, they'll use the "search" feature and find it regardless. But if they go to a forum looking for information on something called "wushu kwan" the kung fu section will probably be their first stop.
     
  18. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I understand that you have not specifically said that wushu kwan Chinese boxing is a traditional Chinese martial art. However please understand that to the term "Chinese boxing" has a well established usage meaning traditional Chinese martial art. Although the meaning of the word wushu has changed over the past 30 years to mean more gymnastic sport rather than traditional art its original meaning and the meaning in use when wushu kwan was given its name was also that of traditional martial art.

    I put a link to the wushu kwan website so that people can look at the whole thing and make their own minds up. However to me having read the web site it seems to be marketed as chinese kung fu and when it is in fact kickboxing.

    No, it my case it was because I put several years of time and effort practicing it while being told it was traditional kungfu, to later discover that it is not. You can find a more detailed post about this using the forum search function, but in summery - My instructor at the time was a good guy and I believe that when he told me that it was traditional kung fu he believed it because that was what he had been told. But to me that just makes things worse.

    I would like to reiterate. I have no issue with what is taught by wushu kwan or with how it is taught. Just with how it is sold.

    I genuinely appreciate your contribution to the discussion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015

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