Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do Resources' started by ronmeister, May 12, 2003.



  1. WTF < ITF

  2. ITF < WTF

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    Ok, I think I've found a difference.

    It IS based purely on the experience with one TAGB dojang and one WTF one, but let's see.

    The TAGB taught me to balance my weight on the back of the leg, allowing for quick kicks with the front leg. In the WTF class, a guy told me that the front leg is better, because there are more kicks you can do with the back leg so it's less predictable.

    Now this is slightly generalising because it still assumes that WTF organisations are kicking based, but it seems to make sense to me...
    But all's good, because both stances have their advantages, so if I were to master both...
  2. utkdjoe

    utkdjoe New Member

    Think bout it, politics is screwing up the world of TKD
    Shoot politics screws up everything now days
  3. carlos

    carlos MAP Hoo Flung Dung Expert Supporter

    Good idea!

    :woo: :bang:
  4. Lithanwif

    Lithanwif Human Punchbag

    Well it worked for China in Gung Fu, and of course Japan in styles of Karate.

    Oh no it didn't did it.

    Guess we'll all be fighting over which is the 'best' style for a long long time. Which, if I may add my 2 cents, Dont think it matters. As a former Karate-ka, Thai Boxer, lau Gar, Wing Chun kail etc man and now a Tae Kwon Do'er think.
    It just doesnt matter as long as you enjoy it. And if you can enjoy it, smile about it and not be too serious about the politics ( I don't mind banter, just leave your ego at the door ) everyone is welcome to train with me. I might rib you. I might rib me ( my style uses that awful sine wave, I know it's pointless and BS physics, but hey it's part of the form )

    No politics, no religion, all welcome, none turned away. No best style no best fighter, just one big Tae Kwon melting pot.

    I have a dream......
  5. popop

    popop New Member

    I can't agree more with this.
    No matter what style/art/sport you practice, if you smile about it then you're following the way you've chosen and you don't have to matter more.

    I'm not sure worries about differnece between WTF & ITF can help you to grow in your art, so ...
  6. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    No, and this thread is why. Ego and politics have killed the possibility of unification. The guys at teh tops of these organizations are in charge and want it that way. If they have to share that role they would be unhappy.
    Why do you think there is more than one Tae Kwon Do style? Ego, money, power, politics. Have you ever trained in a school where one of the senior black belts left the instructor and organization and started their own? Why did they do it? Did they have something new?

    I would love to see the unification, but if it did ever happen - who's view would they take? ITF, WTF, ..... Would it be sport, art?
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Andy Cap: Nice post and I agree with you... and unfortunately seen a lot of this stuff in the martial arts everywhere and especially in Korea.
  8. Lithanwif

    Lithanwif Human Punchbag

    Back in my old Wado Ryu karate days, we shared a hall with a Shotokan class. After months of or classes growling at one another, myself and the Shotokan instructor thought that it would be a good idea to perhaps have a free seminar to show the differences, or lack thereof between the styles, perhaps have a little friendly forms/sparring tournament....

    ...what a nightmare. Neither of the classes wanted to lose, so sparring went from light through schoolyard and right up to almost full contact before it was broken up. We seperated them, both lectured our respective students on proper ettiquet, dismissed them. Then promptly went to a bar and had a few beers. The instructor John was a really nice cool guy who was mainly interested in teaching his art, but no politics. And of course I was open to the same philosophy, being a MA whore.

    'ooh ooh show me how you apply that.....kewl!'

    Unfortuantely ego's get in the way, and once one person whispers 'our style is better than yours', It all escalates real quick. Ive seen grown men act like schoolkids because of politics in MA.

    It's time to grow up, realise that no style is best, be open to the differences.

    Besides if you act open and honest maybe they'll teach you their 'secrets' and you can rip them off.
  9. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    Lithanwif -

    Back in 1994 I think it was, my instroctor had joined his association with the International Tang Soo Do Federation. The Grandmaster of that federation, C.S. Kim, decided that we would have a world tournament and in teh tournament we would have team competition. At one point in this tournament the teams got so heated that we almost had a riot - seriously!! The people running the tournament were also involved in teh tournament, and at one point of the coordinators came over in a dress suit when the action was stopped in one of the matches and kicked one of the competitiors with his shoe to show that he was hit with a side kick fromt eh coordinator's brother. I thought there was going to be a rumble - I could feel teh tension in the air. Fortunately that did not happen. Point is - there is too much pride and ego in the martial arts. IMHO.
  10. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    I'm a little confused at reading this, posted back on page 2 by kwan jang:

    "The only kwan that truly trried to stay true to "traditional" Korean roots and as a martial art, as opposed to a sport was KJN Hwang Kee's moo duk kwan. This developed into tang soo do and later soo bahk do."

    I study Taekwondo, and I get graded through the WTF, yet on the back of my dobok it says Moo Duk Kwan. So I'm practicing the rebellious-sibling art of regular WTF TKD? The one that was too stubborn to give in to the unify-or-die pressure? Someone mind explaining, please?
  11. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    The Moo Duk Kwan experienced some "issues" during the time period that Hwang Kee was argueing with the rest of the Kwan Jang's about the development of TKD. He had his own ideas, however some of his senior students didn't share the same idea. The Moo Duk Kwan split essentially creating two different factions. The one Hwang Kee headed, turned into The Korean Soo Bahk Do Association , and later Tang Soo Do, the other faction fell into the Umbrella of Taekwondo.

    As far as I know, both factions retained the Moo Duk Kwan name, which is probably the reason why you have Moo Duk Kwan on the back of your Dobak.
  12. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Oh...dang. So it's really alot blander than I'd hoped :rolleyes: Oh well :)
  13. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    Correct. Hwang Kee did not want the government involvement in Moo Duk Kwan. Tae Kwon Do was a government sanctioned sport. Hwang Kee also dislike dhte idea of sport and martial arts - he said they did not mix.

    There is a logn story as to wear the name Soo Bak Do came from and then where Tang Soo Do came from. They are one in the same but run by different people.

    So, if your uniform says Moo Duk Kwan on the back I would assume you use the Pyung Ahn forms systems that was adopted and developed by Hwang Kee, and you learn about the Tenets that he developed as well as the other systems he put in place.

    I started as a Tang Soo Do stylist and did that for years, but I did do TKD Moo Duk Kwan for a few years too and the forms adn the system were the same up to around 1990, adn then the olympic craze started...

    Anyways, I hope that clarifies a bit.
  14. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    I think it's amusing, however, that Hwang Kee approached the Korean Amatuer sports council to register before TKD did, intially.

    I always interperted this as Hwang Kee being a bit of a hypocrit until I looked into it a bit more. He essentially had to register with the Korean Government to run an orginization and the sport council was the only applicable wing he could register under. His application was rejected I think due to a smear campaign by the KTA . . . . POLITICS THBBBPPPPP!!!!! :woo: :bang:
  15. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    The gup ranks use palgue forms at our school. I don't know what the dan ranks do, since at the last black belt grading I attended, I couldn't make out what the kjn was saying because of his accent. As for the tenets, we had a nice set of them:
    Be loyal to your country,
    Be obediant to your parents,
    Be lovable to your spouse,
    Be honorable to your friends;
    Never retreat in battle.

    Now we use the Official WTF TKD tenets ^tm that I haven't fully memorized yet. Personally, I liked the old ones better.
  16. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Courtesy, Integrety, Perserverance, Self-control, Indomitable spirit . . . I've actually been told, although have nothing to back this, that these tenets come from the Moo Duk Kwan. Anyone else have any evidence of this or heard of this before?
  17. Andy Cap

    Andy Cap Valued Member

    That is the code of the Hwarang Dan. Hwang Kee adopted that for Moo Duk Kwan, and it is published in his books. I have never been to a Moo Duk Kwan school that did not know those tenets by heart. We pronounce them in Korean in my current Dojang. Althoug loyalty to spouse is not a one of the traditional tenets and "Never take life without just cause" or "Respect all life" is missing from your list.

    Artikon - Actually Hwang Kee approached the Korean governemnt to have Tang Soo Do inducted as the Korean National Art. Originally they sent him to the sports council and he had attempted to go that route, but decided along the way it was not what Tang Soo Do was. In the end Tang Soo Do became the Korean national Art. Tae Kwon Do is the National Sport of Korea.
  18. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Well that certainly explains why my school seems to be different from the 'normal' WTF school. Well, whatever. Thanks for your replies, guys :)
  19. sean

    sean THOR!

    yep spot on, this is the official ITF TKD '5 tenets', writtin in the student study booklet aswell.
  20. d33pthought

    d33pthought New Member

    Wait..Courtesy, Integrety, Perserverance, Self-control, Indomitable Spirit are ITF? That's odd...we have those posted on the dojang wall as the WTF tenets. Let the weirdness live long and prosper, I gues :Alien:

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