change is inevitable, yes. regarding cross training, i'm an open minded person and i can cross train as much as i can with things left the way they are right now
No doubt. Maybe the 2 styles should stay seperate and be different as Karate has different styles. Again, we shall wait and see.
My dear, welcome to the real world. All we can do is what our organisation does. Every year I am checkin new rules and regulations. We may not have a say but we can determine how we teach.
that's the only thing we can decide on and i guess it's ok. nobody asks us about other things in the world anyway
Well Artikon, you're stirring the pot but I'm renewing the thread. I think the definition of "traditional" implies "old school" and suggests values that may have been kept hundreds of years ago. OK, who'd practice TaeKwon-Do if we had to do it that way? I think the important values that are traditional are powerful stances, punching, blocking, well-rounded kicking skills, and breaking. The term traditional is even applied to the uniform: heavy-weight cotton wrap-around. Based on that, I'd say WTF is less traditional because they've shortened the stances, emphasized speed over power, deemphasized punching and blocking, and wear light-weight, V-neck uniforms. OK, I've gotten away from the issue of traditional versus forms but I believe ITF can claim to be more traditional because of values embedded in its forms. Now someone can respond that sinewave deviates from these values somewhat except its goal is to generate more power.
So you are implying that the Kukki forms don't have embedded values? Are you speaking from a moral/philosophical standpoint or are you speaking from a practical application standpoint? I'm no expert on the ITF "values" but I am aware of them, but if you would be so kind as to enlighten the rest of us non ITFers on what these values may pertain to. I quit stirring the pot a long time ago in this thread, but if you are looking at throwing in more ingredients I am willing to taste test.
OK, so I'm playing devil's advocate here, overstating the case, but: Rear foot stance, x stance, bending ready stance? unrealistically from the hip?. : there are no/few blocks in patterns/SD your first turning kick is for black stripe. Is it such a difficult technique?, I don't think ITF has the monopoly on this? Traditional in Korean arts, or Japanese? And crivens, even so, people traditionally climbed mountains in tweed and wool trousers. Do they heck as like now. sometimes a good thing because it, and speed is a prime component in the practical delivery of power. Our turning kicks pwn WTF 45's though absolutely true and this is unforgiveable. there are no/few blocks in patterns/SD, see above this I can forgive. But you're right, sinewave is silly becasue it only generates power in unrealistic situations. Evil Mitch
Well, actually WTF has kept their basic techs like they were in the ~1960's. So WTF's techs look more 1960's shotokan than shotokan of today.
Thanks Mitch, or do you prefer Mr Evil? My point about stances wasn't that all are powerful but traditional styles retain an emphaisis on power. I would describe Rear foot stance, x stance, and bending ready stance and preparatory stances--preparing to pounce. Used in patterns, I think they also demonstrate balance. About kicks (I don't have my gup book handy but), in the ITF turning (roundhouse) kick is taught at yellow belt. There are so many kicks in the ITF I really don't see the need for all the detail. Pick-shaped kick, hook kick, hookING kick, downward kick, side-turning kick, pressing kick, checking kick, sweeping kick, high kick (not just a high front kick), thrusting front/side kick, piercing front/side kick, waving kick, midair 360 skip piercing reverse vertical kick (not really). I'm sorry, I didn't understand that. I'll add that I've finally seen some WTFers deliver turning kicks that scare me! But a match looks like a bum-kicking contest where they take turns letting the other kick them as hard as possible; whoever misses first loses the match. The difference is they're kicking a chest protector instead of a bum. Before sparring I usually caution, "Just so you know, I block kicks." Sorry again. Do I understand you correctly? There are few blocks in patterns? Let me randomly pick 3 ITF patterns: Joong-Gun 32 moves, 15 blocks (8 types) Choong-Moo 30 moves, 15 blocks (10 types) Eui-Am 45 moves, 20 blocks (10 types) Back to the point, I believe that ITF is more traditional than WTF because of the traditional values it retains. WTF has values but they have Olympic dreams attached to them.
WTF has nothing to do with patterns until recently. This year (by this I mean late 2006) was the first year the WTF even hosted a world patterns contest. Patterns have never been associated with Olympic aspirations and are still regulated by the Kukkiwon in terms of the Taegeuk, and prior I believe it was the KTA that came up with the Palgwae and Yudanja patterns; however kukkiwon is now responsible for them. Interesting note is that the Kukkiwon has held hamadang competitions for the last number of years. This may what you consider "traditional" as they focus on the four areas of TKD: patterns, sparring, breaking, and self defense. Still the athletes that go there are not "Olympic" athletes. Our Canadian team that went in 2004 and this year in 2006, non of them are olympic candidates and in fact the majority of them have been school owners/head instructors. I'm still not clear on what you mean by values though. Could you please clarify.
Although I was definitely not around in the 60's, I don't think that the WTF looks remotely like any of the Shotokan I have seen today. Does this mean that Shotokan has evolved or that WTF has reverted back to 60's shotokan?
That's interesting information, Artikon. Thanks! So often I hear that long (not exaggerated) stances with deeply bent knees or one leg locked aren't practical because they slow down your sparring. The typical fighting or L-stance is still too rigid. Modern stances are more upright, feet closer together--and you should bounce! These are differences in what a style values. Traditional martial arts value the power of deep stances--except of course rear foot, X-, and bending ready stances--and full chambers (fists to waist or armpit). Power is admired over speed. I know, speed generates power. It's not the speed of a lightning bolt that splits a tree trunk in half--it's the energy and the pinpoint focus of that energy. I'd describe the **traditional** ball-of-the-foot tool as a more focused weapon than the instep for a turning kick. Speed without focus is less destructive. Destruction could be called a traditional value. Correct if I'm wrong here: In WTF sparring, you get points for contacting a target with (almost) any part of the foot--right? Sparring in my school requires that the appropriate weapon must be used to (almost) strike a target with enough power in reserve to destroy it. If the leg/arm is extended, there was no power in reserve. If a punch has a bent wrist, THAT weapon will not destroy the target. We're not perfect in these details but we value them and we always try. Those are the values that guide us. Speed is not the only god of TKD. Linear techniques are sometimes called traditional values. Of course, Chinese systems are very old and very circular. And again, sinewave is the exception to the rule that TaeKwon-Do is linear. Here's a new question--I'm not sure of the answer my self. Let's assume that non-WTF TaeKwon-Do is traditional for the reasons I've mentioned. Is sinewave TaeKwon-Do traditional???
I think they also demonastrate moves which have been ignored or were unknown to those who developed the patterns as TKD.[/quote] I was talking in terms of patterns as that was the context of the original post. The first turning kick doesn't occur until hwarang at red belt. I think ITF style turning kicks deliver more power and penetration than WTF 45 kicks simply because of the mechanics of the kick, though we do perhaps sacrifice some speed for the same reason. People break with classical style kicks normally, not 45's. I practice a pre-sinewave version of ITF TKD including the Ch'ang Hon pattern set, so our turning kicks own WTF turning kicks. Some people will tell you that none of these moves are blocks, rather they are other movements which have been misinterpreted with the passing of time or because someone down the line was not aware of the actual purpose of the movement. Instead they are the close range techniques which sport sparring so often lacks. Possibly. Best wishes, Mitch
You seem to be arguing form over function here? Traditional may not work as well but heck, we'll stick with it? True, but it must be a component for it to be practical. You know, the more I study it the less I buy that. TKD simply isn't that linear. Direct, powerful, even unsubtle at times, not linear. Absolutely not. In my evil Mitch guise it's nothing but a stylistic device used to enforce a political point
Short answer . . . yes. To score a point with a kick in WTF competition you have to meet certain criteria. First one is that you are contacting a proper scoring area (accurate) with a part of the foot below the ankle (technique minded) generating enough force through the opponent (power/speed). In the perfect world when this is accomplished it is equivalent to the values that you have put above; however there are to many variables to see this happen 100% of the time which is where you will see the tippy tappy sloppy kicks that every (even myself) don't think much of. When it does come down to it however we are based on results. Did the kick connect, yes/no. Did it connect with the right part and area yes/no, was there enough power given the weight class and reaction of the opponents body yes/no. At this point doesn't matter how the kick looks, a point is a point is a point in that instance. I will admit that many coaches and competitors value speed over power, and this has changed the game a bit, but I think you will start seeing a different evolution here soon with the electronic hogus coming into play. By this I mean you must strike it with a certain amount of power according to your weight class for it to register. This gives a less subjective approach to point scoring and I think for the first little bit, depending on what the settings are, you will see a lot lower scoring matches as kicks that scored before are not going to for lack of power. One thing I have noticed from many of your postings . . . and your user name. . . is what your opinion of the importance of traditional TKD. Have you watched any of the hanmadang competition from Kukkiwon? Here is a sample from this years. If tradition is more your style then a breaking competition might be up your alley. Little bit different than the acrobatic kicking us young guys do (okay the other young guys cause I can't) and maybe this will demonstrate some of the values that you don't see in Olympic competition. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrhxNSrivuo]2003 Hanmadang breaking[/ame]
As far as I know, WTF has kept their techs as they were in the beginning. Shotokan has changed, some people think that those changes have not been very positive, so I'm not sure if evolution is the right word.. Itf-tkd too looks more like older shotokan than new shotokan.. In Stuart's book (in karate-tkd tech comparison section) there is atleast one example how shotokan has changed; knife hand guarding block / sonkal daebi makgi. In itf-tkd, it's done like it was done in shotokan before it was changed. "Knife hand guarding block in Taekwon-do chambers with both hands at the rear to increase its power whereas the Karate chambers by crossing the hands and shooting one backwards and one forwards". TKD's way of executing this tech is actually the original way. AFAIK, wtf's way of doing this tech is similar to itf's without sine wave.
Another great post. Thanks Artikon. That's an impressive demostration of breaking but it leaves me with many new questions. Is that typically of WTF training or just in Korea? Can most students do that or just the masochistic few? That sure was a big build up to breaking just 1 or 2 boards at the beginning (showmanship?) although the later breaks are awesome. I wonder, however, about those ones where he's laying out on the ground. Seems like you could break bricks with your nose if you jump from high enough and and your whole body weight behind it. Where's the technique? Or is it just courage? I like practical breaking that demonstrates the technique of a martial art--hip-twist, sinewave, whatever. My instructor says that one requirement of a Black belt is being able to break when you must! "Must" usually means during a test. His school has very practical breaking requirements that test your technique--not your courage. I've seen large people not break because their technique was wrong. I've seen small people break easily because their techique was right. If you don't break, you don't pass--at any rank! Now here's a traditional value: dalyon training (I'm sure I've misspelled that!). It means toughening parts of your body. Callouses on your knuckles, thumbs that break boards, shinbones that break arms, heads that break ice. Is that typical of WTF training? I wouldn't say it's typical of ITF training, although I know a few people, one at the master level. Is that more typical of Asian training? I would definitely say it's a traditional value.
