[This thread continues the discussion opened in Artikon's French National Championship Video thread.] Many WTF tournament fighters fight with the arms hanging down most of the time. 1. Do you WTF fighters do this? Why or why not? 2. What reasons have you heard given for either and what do you think of those reasons? 3. How has this worked for you? Non-WTF and non-TKD fighters are welcome to comment of course, but please familiarize yourselves with the rules first. Here is a nice PDF copy of them: ftp://users.primushost.com/members/j/m/jmont/tkd/2004_wtf_rules_int.pdf Please note, this thread is not about: - whether WTF/Olympic-style sparring is good or bad - self-defense - the pros and cons of high kicks This is a thread concerning competition-style sparring under a specific set of rules. Please stay on topic.
either way is acceptable. but i think that they let their hands hang for 2 reasons. 1) in tkd competition rarely do u block the kick. most of the time you evade the attacks using footwork so u dont need to have you're hand up most of the time. 2) less tiring. even though it doesnt require much energy to keep them up. when in intense competition it pays to conserve and much energy as possible. generally i let my front hand hang and keep my rear hand up near my chest.
In my club, we always used to train sparring with our hands up (WTF), after going to a competition (After we hadnt attended for about 2 years) we noticed how much WTF sparring had changed. ALL the competitors had their hands by their sides, and techniques were always thrown to score points, and only points. My teacher was from the korean old school type of sparring, kick them so it hurts, using intimidation techniques and techniques to jar kicks etc and just using the roundhouse powerfully to the body for the point. After this competition, he said "Ok, we went to the competition we saw british champion, european fighters, british team fighters etc, they ALL have hands down, so we do the same". Basically WTF sparring is alot about style (although from those french videos, i see a new short range ugly roundhouse has been used ALOT), the uniforms with adidas stripes, baggy pants etc wide stance. Mostly i found that this was used to say to your opponent 'hey, look at me...i dont care what you do, im not scared, so im gonna have my hands down and stance wide', although i have to admit that i enjoy this showboating part of sparring. When i spar with my hands down, my shoulders are much more relaxed and i feel much more relaxed, i find i dont hesitate or flinch nearly as much. I havnt the chance to quote source, but i believe if a kick lands on the arm and the arm is in front of the protector...it counts as a point anyway...so you may aswell keep them out of the way. Theres no real logical reason for it, its just the way things are. Sky blue, grass green, hands down
Nice post, Helm! I am a WTF practioner and I spar with my hands up. Yes, at competitions I see many students sparring with their hands down... and mainly for the reasons Helm described. Additionally, many students who spar stay at a mideium to long range and use their feet for the scoring (it is difficult to score a point with a hand technique under WTF Tournament rules). Because of this, students train in very fast footwork and evasion. By fighting at a longer range, they do have time to get the hands up for a block or to ge out of the way. I personally don't like this aspect and I teach my students to keep their hands up... usually by fighting at a little closer range and blasting them with high fast kicks or by throwing punches at the face (illegal for WTF tournies but legal in the dojang). I don't like to see people sparring with their hands down (especially the ones who hold their pants)... and if I spar with them, I find getting in close and throwing fast and high lead leg kicks can score to the face.
lol im sorry to say thomas, but im one of those people that hold my pants I'm guessing it has something to do with my short legs. but on the topic of holding arms at sides i spar WTF and i do the same exact thing. it is true if u hold ur arm by ur chestguard and the opponent kicks it you're gonna get scored, but if u see the kick coming and move your arm away from your side then you're fine that's why at tournaments you see fighters use this tactic, then they'll tap their arm or raise their arm to show that it was an arm hit, not a chest hit. i've found this useful because most kicks are aimed at the chestguard and not the head, and its easier to block if your arms are already down. when people come in for head hits i was trained to hit with back-kick with my upper body out of the way it's worked for me so far.
I understand exactly... I usually have to buy larger doboks to fit right, but then the legs are too long. So I get mine shortened at the tailor's! "it's worked for me so far" This is really your key quote, I think. It sounds like you (and others posting here) are doing what works best for you in competition... and if it works, don't change it. I guess I a bit of an old-fashioned guy and this is reflected when I judge as well. I give points for shots in the target area that move the person... I don't award points for the popping sound if the person doesn't show some "trembling shock", although I cut a little more slack on head shots, for safety's concerns. I may be a bit out of the mainstream when it comes to competition because recently when I witnessed the "arm-raising to show it was on the arm", I was confused and a bit surpised that the competitor would question the referee. But, as we all know, things evolve, especially in sports. I would say that the neatest thing about this thread is that even though I will still teach keeping the hands up, I now know why (rationale) that some people don't... it's not for me, but it is for some. Nice thread!
Hands down While I do stress hands up to my color belt competitors, myself I do tend to keep my arms to the side. There's two basic reasons for this, number one of course is simple relaxation. Relaxed fighter is fast and strong fighter. I've seen many players who keep their hands up constantly be to rigid, and that affects their whole body, and movements. Very easy to pick up what they are going to do . . . which leads to reason number two. Predictability. While my hands are down I'm able to do more faking techniques, using my upper body in conjuction with my lower body to become more unpredictable. Now with that being said, generally as soon as I start kicking, or as soon as a kick starts getting thrown, my hands do come up to guard position. Although I prefer not to block and simply avoid, nature of the beast says I will have to many times in a match. As well as soon as I do attack or counter, I'm going to punch if someone is within range, or at least do a cover punch to set up my next kick. That is my reasoning for hands down . . . but only in sport.
i am part of the wtf and i dont do sparring yet but i am gonna start very soon so i'll have to look for that arm position thats interesting.
Just participated in my first major WTF tourney two weeks ago. In preparring for it, the instructor who runs the Mon/Wed sparring-only class at our dojang advised me to change my stance to front arm low, back arm high. Althought the relaxed stance helped me with speed (once I got used to it), the real reason, as explained to me, was for two reasons: First, the low front arm allowed rapid, safe, low-energy-using blocks of body shots (esp. kicks to the front of the chest protector) by rotating the body and blocking with the shoulder/upper arm, AS you were reattacking at the same time (back kick, back hook kick, reattack roundhouse, etc). Second, the raised back arm provided the best opportunity for blocking head shots, when needed. Since I had just gotten my green belt in November, watching for head kicks was entirely new to me, and I had to use extra caution. I noticed at the tournament, though, that most of the upper belts didn't attempt to block head shots, but just evaded them (as has already been said).
In the olympic style sparring I would probably keep my hands up or down because it really depends but since I went to Boxing they always said to keep your hands up in a fight and in matches but in WTF Style sparring you don't really need to.
I fight wtf (olymipc) style sparring, and I've found it best (for me) to spar with my lead hand down (relaxed) and my back hand, very slightly raised. Whenever I am outside of "the danger zone" I don't need to worry about hand position because I don't need to worry about getting hit. I usually use "check motions" before actually entering the "danger zone," To see if I can catch a fighter off guard. I very rarely block an attack. If you keep good distance and watch the other persons shoulder movement. There is a science to sparring, and once you start learning it, and applying it, sparring gets so much easier. My best advice is: Use what works for you, but no matter what, always stay relaxed! -MaxAdam
_The two main reasons that in WTF competition the fighters keep their hands down is that they do not have to protect against puches to the head/face and that when the hands are held low, they can neutralize an opponents leg chamber. Also, they can use the full length of their arms to deflect or block body shots. -When you bring your guard up to protect your head/face, this leaves the lower part of your torso(and chest protector) open to scoring, espescially against cut kicks and uprising kicks. WTF fighters also rely on their footwork a lot to work at the proper distance. It should be noted that this is a VERY sport-specific approach that by adapting to it, can develop some EXTREMELY DANGEROUS habits to the competitor if they ever face an opponent in any other context (including street self-defense). This is why I always teach my students to train with their hands up.
That reminds me of the movie 'Summer School' with Mark Harmon....for the 'older' group, you'll recall the football coaching scene. Succinctly, you don't watch shoulders....it's the hips that are less likely/able to fake. As for this thread, pretty much everything has been covered. Me, hands down now. I can fight with hands up (10 years boxing/kickboxing), but once I am in the WTF ring, I am in that frame of mind....lead arm drooping, back arm rests across the chest (for +/- whipping). I've played against those with arms up, I just don't think they've the fluidness of those in a more relaxed state, and they've been no less difficult to nail with their guard up. This is most likely a topic that belongs with 'Where should one focus while sparring?' I.E., chest, eyes, legs, hips... No, please do not start a thread about that.... Cheers, Yang-nom PS - Anything posted for my viewing ought to be sent via e-mail, as I shan't be visiting this site much...cheers.
