wrists while punching

Discussion in 'Thai Boxing' started by soldier101, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Interesting idea. I'm sitting here looking at the insertion points of the bicep and and how either hand position might effect the stability of the punch Not really sure it makes that much of a difference... as either hook is easily capable of KO power... KO power being down more to timing and accuracy perhaps.

    Though I think you may have meant to say :

    as the bicep is to a much greater extent engaged on the vertical fist (eg. palms facing) in a hook than compared with the hook with a horizontal fist (eg. palms down).

    I've been perusing old boxing manuals to see if they offer any insight either for or against the horizontal/vertical fist preference.
     
  2. daggers

    daggers Valued Member

    David Hayes promotes the vertical fist as it engages the bicep
     
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    ahahaha... not really the biggest Hayes fan in the world. He also promotes bottling idiots like Chisora at post fight conferences and then telling people he doesn't want to fight Chisora because Chisora's last three fights were losses. I generally wouldn't be looking to Hayes for anything but a lot of hot air. Well... to be fair he is VERY, VERY representative of just how much the current era of heavyweights suck. :D

    Ah but seriously though... I have no doubt the hook in that orientation works... I just question how much the orientation in the fist makes a difference with the punch. Again the punch working is more down to timing and distance than sheer power. Will be curious to see if I can dig up mention of it in older boxing manuals.

    Pretty much the case can be made for either or. In fact there have been any number of KO's at the end of either hook. Some fighters use both within the same fight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I get more power in my vertical hook purely because I know I can throw it without cranking my wrist. :)
    Horizontal I'm more tentative with it.
     
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    It's more personal preference than anything. Some fighters even use both. Check out Pacquiao in this post I made a while ago:

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34095316&postcount=14
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Something I was taught about the two different hooks: the horizontal fist was not just closer in but struck down at a 30 degree angle. The vertical fist struck up at 30 degree angle on impact.

    My horizontal hook is rotated slightly more than horizontal by as much as a quarter turn. My vertical fist hook is rotated slightly less than vertical by as much as a quarter turn less (more like an upper cut hook).

    There are many variations and adjustments that happen all the time as needed.
     
  7. If you rotate your wrist even more, and get the back of your hand facing you, your hook becomes the mawashi uchi where the knuckles of the index and middle fingers are set perfectly for impact - a little bit like uraken - you can use it with or without the flick of the wrist, depending on the target.

    It is also a much longer range waza than classical hooks.
    Many Russian fighters have used this technique with success in Kudo competitions (Daido Juku), targeting the temple.
    (I think it is also known as "Russian Hook", but no guarantees)

    I like to use it in sparring against ribs/kidney behind the elbow where I hit while bringing the hand towards me, or on the upper arm at the place where the deltoid, triceps and biceps let the humerus with little protection... it makes beautiful bruises :D


    Osu!
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah that's a great technique for getting around defenses.

    We start to talk about bare knuckle techniques verses technique that work better with wrist wraps and gloves, mawashi uchi, is definitely a technique that can work better bare knuckle than with boxing gloves on for most targets.

    I'll add in my two cents about the verticle fist hook. First, it is better with hand wraps and gloves than bare knuckle for a couple reasons, IME. The first is that when bare knuckle, the thumb is exposed more than with gloves. If bare knuckle and the opponent has his arms up, it is possible to catch the your thumb on a forearm or elbow when you vertical fist hook punch. This is not the same with vertical fist straight punch where the risk of catching the thumb is not as great due to the angle of attack. The second reason is with a vertical fist hook, people often hit too hard. With wrapped hands/wrist/gloves, you can get a way with hitting harder, but bare knuckle, if you catch bone on bone, etc. you can hurt yourself by punching too hard. You can also punch too hard and hurt your wrist if you alignment is off.

    With the horizontal hook, because it does not hit with as much power, due to it being very short ranged, etc... there is less chance of catching the thumb on something during the punch or punching too hard when bare knuckle.

    IMHO.
     
  9. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I'd say that depends on the fighter using the technique more than anything, wouldn't you? Also, I don't think range is really a factor, as I prefer using a vertical fist for my shovel hooks.
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Shovel hooks hit with a lot of power, don't they?

    Is there not a bigger risk of catching an elbow with a shovel hook?

    Of course it depends on the fighter but the techniques do matter. If I'm very close in, a horizontal fist hook (palm down) can hit harder than a vertical fist due to the angle of attack being slightly downward and around/over defenses. A vertical fist hook is going to travel easier is a slightly upward angle (e.g. shovel hook). Bear in mind that instead of a shovel hook, you could have palm up more like an uppercut and have power with less risk of catching an elbow, IME.

    When you have a target further away, the vertical fist hook seems to hit harder than the horizontal fist hook. Again, you can turn the fist 180 degrees so palm faces away such as with an overhand right and get a lot of power. This is a vertical fist but with palm facing away instead of towards you.

    Of course if you get too far away, then hooks aren't going to be as good as straight punches in most cases.

    Hey, here is a concept I learned for close in punching verses mid ranged punching. For mid ranged punching, you bring your fist to where the target is going (like a string pulling your hand to the target). For close in punching, you bring your fist to a location and draw/redirect the target to your fist. So for an uppercut or horizontal fist hook, bring your target into your fist. For a veritical fist hook (assuming further range), you bring your fist to where the target is going to be at the time of impact.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Yes, but then again you can use either fist alignment. I'm probably a bit unusual in my choice, but then again my technique is also a bit different than the usual shovel hook form.

    Depends on the target. I'd say no more so than any body punch.

    It all depends on your target. I can stand right on both of your feet and hit you with a shovel hook with either fist alignment. And yes, that is a viable technique too, though I usually call it an uppercut or (in karate terms) ****a tsuki. It's one of the top punches in knockdown fighting.

    To me using a vertical fist for a long range hook feels very strange, and I'm speaking as someone who has a fair amount of boxing experience. The longer your hook gets, the more a vertical fist seems to bend at the wrist in comparison to the horizontal. That's also a viable technique, but that goes beyond basic hook technique and begins getting a bit more esoteric.

    Look at Marquez landing this hook on Pacquiao. At this range even with his wrists wrapped landing with a vertical fist at this range for a hook would not be fun in anyone's book I'm imagining.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nice posts Kuma, but that picture doesn't quite make the point with me as that is a vertical fist as much as a horizontal fist. It is half way in-between.

    In a previous post I tried to explain that I like my hooks to be a quarter turn less or more than horizontal or vertical. To me the picture is a vertical fist punch + 1/4 turn. You could call it a horizontal fist punch - 1/4 turn and be just as correct. My other qualifier, however, is that horizontal fist comes down at 30 degree angle, and vertical fist punch punch comes up at 30 degree angle on impact. So since the punch is rising, I call it vertical fist punch mechanics.

    If I'm making any sense. :cry:
     
  13. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You do realize that it had just struck Pacquiao and most likely glanced off of his face, right? It's all semantics anyways. You'll frequently see fighters use both, as it really doesn't matter. As another example, check out Tyson.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    In a fight, nothing's ever going to land picture perfect, which is fine. The object is not to have technique that looks good for the still shots. It's to damage and knock out your opponent. So long as it does the job, you can do it any way that feels comfortable to you.
     
  14. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Quality pictures Kuma.

    The first one of Tyson illustrates why the short hook isnt used all that much in Muay Thai,have a look how close the elbow is to the target,with a short step in a and a more upright body the elbow could land,and as the elbow doesnt have a glove on it potentially it could cut or cause a KO.

    Sorry to derail the thread a bit lads just the picture reminded me of using the elbow:)
     
  15. I like tyson's full body commitment and intent on that pic - thanks kuma! :)


    Osu!
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
  16. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    No worries, fire cobra, it's a useful insight.
     
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Haha...doing that's not unknown in western boxing either. :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Excellent pictures PA,Rocky was awesome:).

    Interesting hand positions on the hook to:)
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Maybe it is semantics but the shorter hook IS done like an elbow strike for me. This is particularly why it is a horizontal fist (palm down) hook for me as I get rotation/pivot point on the front of my forearm.

    @Kuma, even more semantics I just realized. When I am very close in and striking with my shoulder, I have my palm facing me like doing a vertical fist hook/elbow (this is funny because my short ranged hook, as stated above is horizontal fist). When I hook further with a horizontal fist, this is my overhand right/left (this is funny to me because my longer ranged hook is vertical fist). So it is indeed semantics, I could hook very close in with a vertical fist, I just use that as a shoulder strike instead. I could hook horizontal fist at a longer range, I just use that as an overhand right/left.

    Edit: Even the announcer called this a hook I think at first but later calls it an overhand right. To me that is an overhand right because it is too long ranged to be a horizontal fist hook. Semantics!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqEk8gU4C6U"]Puerto Rico Boxing - Wilfred Benitez KO Hope - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
  20. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Fantastic pictures of these punches.

    Interestingly Jack Dempsey who is a major promoter of the verticle fist for straight punches is a fan of the horizontal fist for the hook, and an intemediate position with the palm halfway to facing the ceiling for the shovel hook.

    His method for teaching the hook is also to get you to hit with the elbow half a dozen times, and on the 7th shot bring your fist out enough to use it. He uses this method for a close hook and uses a corkscrew method for a longer range hook.
     

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