Wrestling in Iowa

Discussion in 'Wrestling' started by Pretty In Pink, Apr 2, 2012.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Looks ridiculously tough. A documentary well worth watching:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QdcHrPotm4&feature=related"]ESPN The Season - Iowa Wrestling Part 1 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Here's Minnesota wresling team. It just looks brutal.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5BwwQhshxE"]Dog Days: Minnesota Wrestling Documentary 2004-2005 - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. Haakon

    Haakon Valued Member

    It's tough for sure. Wrestling is serious business in the midwest. I remember when I was doing wrestling in MN in high school, we often did 2 practices a day one before school one after.

    Crazy hard workouts, harder by far than any traditional martial arts class I've been to.
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Looks harder than MMA schools too! Those kids must be in like, peek condition.
     
  5. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Wrestling is the top sport in Iowa. Where I grew up, a town of 1000 people might have 600-800 people at a high school basketball game, maybe 50 at a wrestling match. In Iowa its just the opposite.
     
  6. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    I wrestled in Pennsylvania a long time ago, my school sucked and I was mediocre. Pa is well known as a wrestling state as well. Penn State just won the NCAA wrestling championship for the 2nd year in a row.

    Yeah, the conditioning was tough. The only thing that I did that was harder was Marine Corps boot camp.
     
  7. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    can you imagine how dominant american wrestling would be if they hadn't taken the submission side of it out ? the martial arts world and mma would both look very different.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Makes me wish they taught CACC instead!
     
  9. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    yeah. even freestyle is an evolution of folkstyle which is an evolution of CACC (nothing like that stupid french wrestling they call "greco-roman").
    you can see where many CACC techniques are in freestyle but dont go past the "control" phase you have in wrestling.
     
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Submissions were made illegal in CaCC amateur matches somewhere in the mid-19th Century and were usually illegal in professional matches as well.

    But they were remembered and frequently taught.

    I'm currently wrapping up "A Hand-Book of Wrestling" by Hugh Leonard. 1897. It illustrates more than 200 techniques including locks and chokes. The last choke illustrated is "Side Strangle Hold" (from a side-head-lock position) and Leonard writes, "This hold is barred in most professional and all amateur matches, rather by reason of its suggestive name than because there is any danger connected with its use."

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  11. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Makes you wonder though, if it became illegal then how did people like Josh Barnett get so damn good at subs? He has never taken BJJ in his life, learned everything from CACC apparently xD
     
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    "usually illegal in professional matches... But they were remembered and frequently taught."

    Not legal in amateur matches isn't the same as "forgotten" but it can, and often does, mean a gradual fading away. How often are the leg-locks taught in Judo? They're part of the official curriculum but not legal in competition. I asked one high ranking instructor to teach me the Judo version of the leg locks and he declined, stating as his reason, "I've never been any good at them because I don't use them."

    Josh is good, no doubt. However, he wasn't wrestling professionally prior to 1899 when Barton-Wright introduced Japanese Jui Jitsu/Judo to the West, eventually bringing Tani and Uyenishi over to teach. By the late teens or early 20's there were countless CaCC/Western-Wrestling vs. Jui Jitsu matches and, past that point, it is easy to claim cross-cultural influence by direct experience and observation. Gotch, for instance, developed his "Famous Toe Hold" (of which there were many variations) after the Jui Jitsu challenge matches.

    The point is, while Josh is good, some may claim the subs he learned were actually JJ subs based on the early 20th C. interaction between CaCC and JJ as opposed to pre-JJ subs.

    What I can say with authority, however is: 1) Locks and Chokes in CaCC predate the entrance of JJ to Europe. 2) They were very uncommon in standard Pro matches (though some claim they were just the reverse, common, in Vaudeville/Carnival wrestling - I don't know how they could prove that, though, but I like to believe it anyway.)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Thanks for that man, very informative :)
     
  14. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    My understanding was that old-school pro wrestlers (we're still talking post-1899) were taught legitimate wrestling, including "hooks" or "consession holds". I own a copy of "Blue Blood on the Mat" by Atholl Oakeley in which he relates that there was a push for the inclusion of the submission as a way to win a match when some wrestlers were simply too big to be pinned; IIRC, he mentions one of the Zbyskos as being "egg-shaped" and simply unable to get both shoulders on the mat at the same time. I believe he mentioned they got the idea from the Judoka of the time.

    With that being said, old-school Catch manuals do show holds that are "for punishment" and include face locks (neck cranks), toe holds, and arm manipulations. I've seen in several manuals where a "double wrist lock" (Kimura, in BJJ parlance) was used "to set up a fall". In investigating this particular hold, I've found that the hand-up figure-four (Americana/top wrist lock/"key" lock"- itself a modern misuse of the term) is quite common, while the hand-down (DWL/Kimura/chicken wing) is found in Catch manuals but not in Judo/Jujitsu manuals of the era. There's also what my coach calls the "post chancery" that seems to be a Catch, and perhaps American, invention:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73XXj1vxt8s"]Tony Cecchine's American Catch Wrestling: Figure Four Front Choke - YouTube[/ame]

    I say this because I've seen it in US Army manuals going as far back as WWI, although one claimed it came from Jujitsu. While I won't discount that it MIGHT, manuals of this time were usually a hodge-podge of Western martial arts as well as the scant Jujitsu that was known at the time. I have never seen any other independent JJ manual include it. As well, the version more common in British Catch, the "hook chancery" or "Grovit", was almost entirely a neck crank and performed slightly differently:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq0OrVgEFs4"]Grovit Wrestling Front Face Lock - YouTube[/ame]

    Barnett learned his stuff from Matt Hume, who in turn learned it from the Pancrase boys (Funaki, Suzuki, etc), who in turn learned Catch from Karl Gotch (and likely mixed it with their native Judo), who in turn learned it at the Snake Pit in England. I would go so far as to call it "Shoot" wrestling because it doesn't take the pin into account, unlike classical Catch.
     
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Love the vids! :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Nice thread!!!!! wow first I've seen of it. This is what always cracks me up... when most 'martial artists' discuss martial arts they are very dismissive of wrestling... especially the Greco-Roman or college style. Well the reality is... wrestlers would annihilate most martial artists on the take down alone. People think a take down is a take down is a take down. It's not... a proper wrestlers shoot can get you KTFO'd in short order. It's explosive and when you get caught with it... unless you've worked your sprawls you're going down. FACT.

    I've seen highschool wrestlers embarrass full grown men a time or to in parking lots and bars. The work ethic and the conditioning you get in wrestling is second to none. Fact. I grew up for a portion of time with many friend who were either state or regional champions for wrestling... so the summer at someones house that had a pool mean a lot of being almost drowned when someone decided it was water wrestling time. :p Though I probably drank more pool water than anyone ever... I also learned how to pull off Firemans Carry which is a move that saved my ass years later in life. I never forgot it and put paid to an idiot right quick. I rang my old mate and thanked him... he got a good laugh out of that. :D Funny enough I've not tried to use it in BJJ... I only used it that one time years later when my brain hit code red... I was instantly transported back to almost being drowned over the summer at a pool wrestling session! :p

    You can't bring up the word Iowa and wrestling in the same sentence and NOT think of Dan Gable:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beJQAHE6PvQ"]Dan Gable 1972 Olympic Special - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  17. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    FWIW - this is the Firemans Carry - probably something similar in most grappling. The thing about it is... this instructional and in wrestling... you are on mats and it's in the abstract and most importantly you are taught to tuck your chin... most people who don't grapple wont do that instinctively... so they catch their forehead on the way down or they smack the back of their skull on the landing after the flip/roll. The time I actually used it... the guy landed on his forehead and was out cold - probably because my carry wasn't text book. I stood up and ran like I was a track star. :p

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VWrI15OQoY"]Wrestling Instruction The Fireman's Carry by Carl Adams - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2012
  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

  19. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    lol yep not like his coach is a BJJ blackbelt or anything :cool:
     
  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I do my firemans carry more like this:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjdYe7zskY"]Far Leg Fireman's Carry KOLAT.COM Wrestling Techniques Moves Instruction - YouTube[/ame]

    Its less of a explosive throw and goes straight to a pin. Though going up against my teammates, they do it the "proper" way where its more like your vid and its a hard throw.
    Do it right and both feet fly parrallel to the ceiling and it can be classed as a 5point suplex (rare but happens as long as the ref and the table judge agrees to it on the spot) otherwise is a 3pointer.
     

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