Would you ever give up your weapon?

I've done very, very little FMA (a little cross training here and there with stick and knife). I have done a bit of weapons in Hapkido - cane and short stick especially.

I would release my weapon if it set me up for a better position. In fact, when working with students in a freestyle manner, sometimes they will focus on controlling my weapon... when I release it and go for strikes or empty hand locks, the 'release' gives me a split second of 'surprise' time.

At my last test, I was doing some cane techniques in a freestyle manner - in one instance, my opponent went down and ended up trapping my cane... I released the weapon and shifted into a ground position (side mount transition into a top mount and used strikes to pummel him).

 

The goal is - or more accuately should be- to end the fight.
Any time something prevents or slows down ending a confrontation it is to be discarded.

So "yes I would" in other words!

FMA is something a love, but does get a bit "drill focused" sometimes at the expense of pragmatism

 

A weapon is a tool that you use to gain an advantage. Your strikes and conditioning are weapons too. If you lose sight of the goal - to win, and change the goal to focus on a stepping stone or tool then you are not getting from A-B and are missing the point of the encounter.

Becoming attached to a weapon can work against you.

 

This is an interesting question because giving up your weapon does not mean that you will gain a superior position, it might just be getting out of one bad position and temporarily transitioning into a different slightly less bad position.

If we look at techniques as having three parts, the first part is the "trick" that sets up the second and the second allows for a strong third or finish. Most people that learn the trick, can still have trouble transitioning to the second part seamlessly.

With the snake/vine disarm, the trick is the snake/vine disarm combined with a thrust to the eyes. Say that I am the one caught in the snake/vine disarm, I may not have a choice to let go. It is actually the person performing the trick on me who decides if I can let go, either by their choice or by their sloppiness. If they allow me to let go, it is part of their "plan" and they know what can come next and are already a step or two ahead of me.

If I can let go of my weapon between the trick and the second part (e.g. the opposite arm lock) because of their sloppiness, then this is a hole in their technique during a transition... only under pressure testing can we know how bad this hole is, since in drills you can be holding back. Although with alive training you can get closer to finding big holes without full out pressure testing.

 

Good question. Yes, I think if I'm being disarmed (obviously a very low probability ) and it is more advantageous to abandon the weapon then I will do so.

We train for this eventuality from both sides, and when learning a disarm, limb control and striking effectively before, during and after the disarm, as will as being positioned and prepared to counter any follow up shots, are key.

I think there can be some (limited) benefit in the more esoteric locks like on the video you posted, but, for me simplicity is king, so theyre mainly an unnecessarily complicated way of learning body mechanics and positioning. The risks of learning the locks on this manner is that if may develop the (false) belief that the drill is the exact application, and the absence of trying the disarms without progressive resistance is (IMHO) a recipe for failure.

There's a nice progression to the snake disarm, which can also be applied to any disarm for that matter -
1. Learn the raw technique with no resistance
2. The guy being disarmed starts to struggle after the snake has been locked on (before the ejection)
3. The disarmee starts to struggle before the snake is locked on
4. The disarmee is free to push, pull or grab with their free hand
5. The disarmee can strike, tackle, spit, with our without releasing the weapon

I probably skipped a couple of steps but you get the idea!

Personally I've found using my non weapon hand to monitor their weapon and crashing in with a headbutt pretty effective at changing the tide of the encounter. Especially as I can use my natural reaction to pull the weapon away from their disarm attempt to close the distance for the headbutt.

More generally, as with any weapon disarm or joint lock/control, the probability of success increases significantly if you hit them repeatedly first!

 

This

Are we only talking about blunt weapons here?

Speaking from my RCSF experience yes there are times when you let go of the stick to achieve superior position. Sometimes it's in corto/clinch where there is separation between you bodies and your opponent has a hand on your stick. If he's stick fixated a lot of the times it opens him up for an empty hand blitz, but if you do do this you have to go with the absolute conviction of finishing the fight.

Other times in grappling, it's sometimes necessary to put the stick down to more readily defend position. When you put it down you should know where it is, and sometimes even be counting on it being there.

At the 1:50 mark in the below video, you'll see a rather attractive fellow put his stick down to defend position, try to manouver his oponent into position for a stick choke but unfortnately fail due to his opponents awareness.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOMuJLhrXwQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUSA_l2D2hT33g8-wNZ-fsog"]Lonely Dog's Workout 010 - Shrimping - YouTube[/ame]

In staff fighting, there are tie ups and grappling that can be done, but I've generally found it easier when distance closes to abandon the staff and get to work empty hand.

As Simon says, a lot of the simplicity has been lost in order to make things more complicated.

 

Actually your misunderstanding the purpose of the drill. This is used to teach you how to 1 manipulate the opponents limbs. And 2 how to disrupt their balance in close. At the corto range things are happening so fast that you don't have time to think oh I will simply let go because by the time you do he's already 3 moves ahead and it's too late. Plus your ego in a fight will tell you to retain your weapon. It's my weapon. And you will even for a split second resist the extraction and fight it. Then it's too late he has you and again he's 3 steps ahead.

That is the problem with looking at something that is not performed in real time with real hits. You can pick holes in it. But do it in real time with real intention all the 'but I would just do this' goes right out the window.

 

And on another point. If you don't train it. You won't use it.

There are usually only three reasons something doesn't work.

1. You don't train it.
2. You haven't trained it enough.
3. Your doing it in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

If you do Eskrido ( which ) what this is. Doing it at full speed with intention ( which I have done ) at each point of the drill the confrontation can be finished. He moves to the next limb to accommodate something coming at you or a response / counter to what you are doing. Eskrido is built around the opponents response to your intentions hence the partner throws in the punch ( which is how most people respond to their weapon being held up ) and if you don't respond you simply get hit. And if you let go to punch he would just move on to manipulating the other limb which would be the first one you would bring in to the game as your weapon hand would be retracting.

 

As a matter of fact it does not assume that something is coming right back at you. It expects it.

 

And if you read the description of the video it says just that.

Playing with a variety of locking possibilities from the overwrap snake control followed by a thrust toward the face to get a reaction followed by the use of the left hand to gain a connection for trapping/locking.

 

But you didn't post a video of a split entry you posted the Eskrdo one which I assume you use as an example to reinforce your view which I simply pointed out your not understanding the content of the video your using as an example which is the point.

 

On a different line of this discussion (I have been mulling this over in my head), I would be more likely to give up a stick, staff, cane than I would my knife. I would be hard pressed to give up my firearm (which ties into firearms retention drills and techniques). I don't see all weapons as "equal" and wheras I would be willing to give up a weapon for a superior position, I would also have to weigh how much more of a threat it could become.

 

With all weapons I use weapon retention techniques but if left with no option you have to make a decision in a hairs breath would you really give up your weapon as after all this is the thing that can all too often tip the odds in your favour.

So hypothetically if it gave me an advantage yes. But in reality and with the time frame given to make that decision and weigh up the odds I don't think you'll have the time and if your weapon is tied up the chances are you are simply a hairs breath away from being beat. So the question is really a mute one as I see it.

 

And bearing in mind if I have your weapon trapped or tied up I'm hitting you all at the same time. That's a lot to think about bearing in mind I can hit you up to 6 times in a second.

 

Good point, it's the same for me about retaining the knife, and, IMO, this is the other side of the coin of knives being (much) harder to disarm - (generally) fine motor skills vs gross motor skills, much greater damage potential from an edged weapon being 'torn away' than an impact weapon and so on.

It ties in, again, IMO, with the effective ranges for a weapon's primary function(s).

An edged weapon's primary functions (cutting, stabbing) can be easily deployed at close range with no chambering, whereas an impact weapon needs some space to generate hitting power. Yes you can apply locks, but, for me, the primary function of an impact weapon is exactly that - impact, for which effective power generation requires some space.

A knife is highly effective if you or it against something soft, press, and pull away...

This discussion is leading me to conclude that stick and knife is the "best" non-projectile weapon combination!