World Kali Eskrima Arnis Organisation

nice post Peter.Your Post says it all .

heehee thought it was time to stop lurking

I will go back to lurking once there are some answers re:WKEAO

 

You might not know this bit Dhay, but at the British Council meeting last year, we all discussed who would take on which roles and when we mentuioned getting contacts at the Philippine embassy and with the organisers of the Barrio festival, Ermar stepped forward and volunteerd to take on this task, which we all voted and agreed would be a good idea although he was not an executive board member, we welcomed him and the efforts he said he was willing to make.



We had one contact from Ermar saying that the Barrio festival would like to link up with us in some form, but since then, have not been given any of the contact details and Ermar has not been in contact with the British Council since regarding any of the task he volunteered to take on, on behalf of the council. When was he intending to pass these details onto us?



As was pointed out to you when this question of the date change came about, we felt it unfortunate but considering we had planned this event for over a year and it is the only time we can get all of these top instructors under one roof, we could not change the date because the organisers of another event decide to change theirs at the last minute.



And with regards to sending representatives from each group. Well when you wish to place your group in a good light you tend to send your best students and not beginners, unfortunately and this may surprise you the best students of all the systems who are teaching at the FMA Festival will not only want to assist their instructor, but they also want to experience the other styles being showcased. After all we are promoting the FMA as a whole at this event and people want to see it as a whole under one roof. Not scattered all over London.



People are travelling from Germany, France and Ireland to be at the FMA festival, do we really want to leave our less qualified members to take over the FMA festival in order to support another festival which is not strictly dedicated to promoting the FMA as a whole. Yes I would like to be there, I have been there many times before, but I cannot for obvious reasons. So do not throw that one into the hat and say we are not supporting you when it is obvious we have commitments elsewhere and in fact we asked Ermar to arrange a venue in or near the Barrio festival, but again nothing was said so we had to book a hall before it got too late.



I have taught at this festival on a few occasions in the past and I admit it was fun and a great expeariance, but no offence I would much prefer to see all these other styles of FMA and experience their uniqueness, after all it is FMA that interests me more too, I think I may have a passion for it.

Sorry to interrupt, Huhermmmm!

BUT!

You are correct, you are just a noob, but I am sure as the years go on and you gain more exposure, your observations may well change and you may even understand the point I am trying to get across.

But the fact of the matter is, his linage was placed in the newsletter and it was missing important parts, such as Master Lee Banda being the person responsible for exposing him to DG DP in the first place and his training was not exclusively under Gm Danny which is the impression you get when you read the news letter. As I said, credit where credit is due, it is a matter of clarity for those you are giving information to.

You are correct again, you are a noob at this sort of thing. Team coaches not only build team spirit, they also prepare the competitor for the major event, they look at their week points (everyone has them) and close them up, they look at their strong points (everyone has them) and improve on them, they are more than just team spirit builders, they can be the difference of you winning or losing a medal.



No matter how good someone is, I have seen very good fighters decide to go into a fight on competition day without a coach and lose miserably and storm off in a huff. Simply because they did not have a guide in their corner, because when you are fighting you cannot see everything that is going on, but the coach can.



What uses do they have anyway other than team building?



How successfull would a boxer be without a coach? How successfull would a football team be without a coach? How successful would the WEKAF British team and it’s fighters be without the coach?



Put it this way, there are a few world champions out there who are from different styles who will quite honestly tell you that, yes their instructor played an important role in preparing them, but they will also tell you that if it were not for the coaches they would have had less chance of picking up their titles.



As I said, the instructor get’s you to the team, but it is the coach that gets you to the championships.

Yes it was very successful, so much so that I used to actually write a regular column for the Embassy newsletter ‘Kumusta’ and was often at the Embassy and their functions promoting the FMA, both in London and Paris.



And me and John Harvey were requested to be the bodyguards for the Philippine Ambassador to France, during their Barrio Festival.



My involvement with the Embassies and the Festivals stopped after I left London for this and other personal reasons that took up my time.

I don’t know about you but this sure sounds like it to me, which I am sure it will to others too.

Coupled with:

This gives the impression that because you are not Pinoy you will always somehow be inferior and never quite as good as a Pinoy, wouldn’t you say?

Yes of course he is allowed to say his system is the best and rightly so because if he did not believe this to be true then he would have to admit he is wasting his time, But as I have said, it is not what you say, it is how you say it. It is the best for him, but this does not make it the best for everyone else does it? And that I am afraid is the impression that is given in the way it is worded.



Don’t get me wrong, do I think Doce Pares is the best? Yes of course, but it is the best for me. Is it the best style out there? Well for me it is. Does that make any of the other styles any worse? No of course not. They are all the best in their own unique way and they are all the best for someone and that is the point and this is how you help each other promote the FMA as a whole, by accepting that what you do is the best for you and what the next person does is the best for them and that everyone one of you in your own unique way are the best.



Getting the point yet?

I never said I know everything, what I did say was I know more than you realise of what is happening and being said in the FMA world ( I even know what some GDP guys have been saying about you recently, but that is not for this discussion and I tend to dismiss idle gossips, unless it concerns me personally).



Unfortunately the FMA is a very small world and also unfortunately when things get said and are mentioned to others, news travels fast as they say. Sometimes it is good to keep opinions to yourself, regardless of what you think, as you never know who will pass them on. Showing good intentions is always welcome, but not when people say the opposite behind closed doors. (Not aimed at you personally, just advice on the realities of the FMA world)

But it is not to others reading the Newsletter. I know it and Ermar knows it and GM Danny even knows it, but the newsletter was not for us it was for the general public, how are they supposed to know that titbit of information?



By actually excluding Master (not Mr) Lee Banda from the statement made, gave the impression that Master (not Mr) Lee Banda had no involvement at all in his exposure and training in the FMA. As I said, clarity is required and it is not what you say, it is how you say it.

No offence but as I said, Clarity is required.

No he does not, but failing to mention any other groups events he participated in and only mentioning WEKAF in this section of the news letter gives people the impression that he must have been fighting in WEKAF since 2000. Dare I say it. CLARITY IS NEEDED.



If you read it again, it says he is a member of the British Team and then immediately follows by within the 7 years of competing bla bla bla. So the fact that it follows immediately after his WEKAF British Team success gives the impression that the years mentioned are also about the WEKAF British Team. Get my point.

That point was never raised.

And I never said that is what he said either? I commented on bold statements that needed clarity and at no time did I even question Doce Pares and it’s reputation, why the hell would I, I have been involved with them since 1987, but according to some people here in the UK, that is not long enough for me to call myself a senior member of Doce Pares. Strange that, isn’t it?



And on a finer point, yes you are entitled to promote yourself, that is how you get students, but promoting your self is for you and your club, not for the FMA as a whole. Stating that an individual is the best on the continent is not promoting the FMA as a whole either, it is in fact making the claim that all other individuals or styles are not worth seeing. This is not promoting the FMA as a whole, is it?



Get my point?



Best regards



Pat

 

HI All.
with all these people saying they are going to refrain from posting on this thread.I get the impression that no one from the WKEAO is going to front up and promote this WKEAO group
With this WKEAO group chosing to take no action WARNING BELLS ring.
If anybody is concedering joining WKEAO you need to ask "WHY" 5x to each rule and objective of the WKEAO.If you are happy with your answers.Then join the WKEAO
Me personaly feel this group is dodgy,which is a shame for FMA in your country.
I dont like seeing people ripped off and this is what i feel this WKEAO will be doing.
I have nothing againts DGDP.In fact Danny Guba was one of my first instructors teacher (the late Gordon Carnie) and i only heard good things about Danny.

So if any one is thinking of joining this group.
1.ask WHY 5x
2.read between the lines of any paperwork
3.Question everthing (look at previous posts for questions to ask)
4.Dont sign anything,unless you are completely happy with the outcome

 

If Doce Pares is the best for you, why teach Rapid Arnis? Why don't you teach Doce Pares only instead?

Luv Lots
dhay

:Angel:

 

That didnt last long did it Dhay
Hope you dont get in trouble from your leaders.

Hey Dhay,as an X student (Im presuming you are not training in Rapid Arnis anymore) you should already know this answer
Im not quiet sure what the above has got to do with WKEAO ?? :topic:

Im sure you could start a seperate thread titled:

"I have no respect for my first eskrima system lets diss and interagate the leaders here Luv Lots
dhay :Angel:

ok sorry i went off topic

Back on topic

Dhay you are obviously pashionate about FMA,Just dont forget your FMA roots.
Im sure some of your questions towards Pat could be cleared up by a simple phone call or PM or Email to Pat instead of on this forum.
What do you think Dhay?

Are you involved in this new WKEAO group?
Can you answer any of the questions being asked about this WKEAO group?

How many posts will it take before you reply again Dhay

Cheers

Ricknz

 

Hey Rick... sorry I'm a bit stubborn... I'll really reply when I want to

Hey Dhay,as an X student (Im presuming you are not training in Rapid Arnis anymore) you should already know this answer
No, I haven't quit Rapid Arnis. I'm just making sure its for me. It's just like studying religion, eg Christianity. I wanna understand it inside out, it's historicity, and I take what my Master says is true because he is the ultimate guide and he didn't create a creation (or system) for nothing.

I was surprised when my own master said that he prefers Doce Pares to be the best for him. What's the point of teaching us a different system then? Being a Rapid Arnis student, I was actually kinda hurt and confused as to why he thought another system is better than the one he's teaching us.

It's not dissing. It's questioning. Posting on the public domain opens you to criticism, questioning and debate. And since I don't get to see Pat everyday face to face, I guess the forums is a way of communicating with my master.

Jesus never discouraged his disciples from asking questions whenever they got confused. Or its like the Pope saying that the best religion for him is Hinduism. How do you think would his flock react?

Im sure some of your questions towards Pat could be cleared up by a simple phone call or PM or Email to Pat instead of on this forum.
What do you think Dhay?
Oh, so now you dont want this to be discussed here on the public domain? What Pat just said was done on the public domain, hence he opened himself to criticism, questioning and debate. Does this mean, only you guys are allowed to question and critic, but I and Ermar cant? What do you think Rick?

Are you involved in this new WKEAO group?
Honestly, I am not. I have the same questions about it as you do.

Please be gentle. Peace!

Luv
dhay

:Angel:

 

Typical aries huh

Ok my mistake about you being a X student,Because you have mentioned DP quiet a lot,I presumed you had left RA and you have some sort of Grudge againts Pat.

I think that is taken in to how you interpretate it,as youknow i am also a RA student.
My interprtation of what Pat said is.
A big majority of Rapid Arnis has Doce Pares,Pat has recently been made a life member in DP,GM Percival Pableo(sp?) From DP is the Rapid Arnis techinical advisor.Pat is also a member of the San Miguel eskrima (which is related to DP)I am estimating here (Im sure someone will correct me) RA has 80% of DP the other 20% is made up of what works from Pats previous systems.Just like DGDP is not solely multi-style as i understand there is DP Eskrido from Cacoys system blended in there as well.
Pat is equaly pashionate about his system he developed Rapid Arnis International and Doce Pares original multi-style.
I personaly didnt take offence to what Pat said as i understand the systems with in Rapid Arnis.I feel the Doce Pares Pat teaches and Rapid arnis is the one and same just a differant label.Pat could of easily said Rapid Arnis,but he said DP,maybe he said DP as that was what was being talked about?To me they are both the same with the exception of one system is more flow and the other has a higher intensity.This is my newbiee perspective
Does that make sense to you Dhay,Thats just my interpretation of why Pat said DP rather than RA

My apoligise for thinking you were dissing.
Questioning is all good in the right forum topic.

Thats not it at all Dhay.I got the impression there was some sort of conflict beteen the two groups and was just suggesting to sort it out away from the discussion of the WKEAO thread.That is ALL.
By all means start up another thread and continue the discusion so we can stay on topic here
*yup thats really funny me staying on topic as im writing this post*

This is what this thread is all about there are alot of unanswered questions on this WKEAO.If you or Ermar do get paperwork for this group reread my post on what to ask and look out for before signing.

Was that gentle enough Dhay?

Cheers

Ricknz

 

Ok I have done some research and these next two bits are from the official WKEAO group application form.That was kindly passed on to me from a good friend in the UK.

WORLD KALI ESKRIMA ARNIS ORGANIZATION
MEMBERSHIP APPLICATION FORM 1 I apply for membership of World Kali Eskrima Arnis Organization.
I understand that the membership is for a 12month period.
I will abide by the rules and regulations of the W.K.E.A.O.
I understand that upon acceptance I will be issued a membership/licence book, for twelve months and is renewable thereafter each year.
All forms and fees are to be posted to the address at the top of this form.
Membership fee £25.00 per year. All cheques payable to K.G.ILLILAND

WORLD KALI ESKRIMA ARNIS ORGANIZATION
SCHOOL / CLUB APPLICATION FORM 2
I apply for Club/school membership of European Union of Kali Eskrima Arnis.
I will abide by the rules and regulations of the WKEAO.
I understand that upon acceptance I will be issued a certificate of membership.
All forms and fees are to be posted to the address at the top of this form.
Membership fee £50.00.
You must have individual membership for all Instructors & students.
Please use application form 1.All cheques payable to K.G.ILLILAND

Below is links to bits about the WKEAO and some of the things that are written on the links

http://www.dannyguba.co.uk/html/gm_guba.html

It says here “President / chief instructor – World kali Eskrima Arnis Organization

http://www.dannyguba.co.uk/html/contact.html

It says here Headquarters for GM Danny Guba and the World kali Eskrima Arnis Organization:W.K.E.A.O

http://www.dannyguba.co.uk/html/news.html

It mentions
:GM Danny Guba has resigned from the British council to concentrate on his new organization the WKEAO”

Guru Ron Balicki joins the WKEAO as a technical director for Lameco eskrima, Inosanto Lacoste kali system

Grand master Danny Guba forms the World kali Eskrima Arnis Organization:W.K.E.A.O

This new organization is for all styles of Filipino martial arts

Do you want to be part of a world association, with a legitimate, authentic Filipino Grand Master?

Do you want access to world class seminars,workshops and training with GM Guba and other instructors.

Do you want your grades officially recognized?

Do you want to become an instructor?

Would you like to become a representative for your country, area etc?

If so then please contact the E.U.K.E.A. today for your application forms!

Please note: The W.K.E.A.O has no links to the British council for Filipino martial arts

http://www.dannyguba.co.uk/html/w_k_e_a_o_.html

It mentions:

World kali Eskrima Arnis Organization:W.K.E.A.O

Grand master Danny Guba is forming a new organization to promote all Filipino martial arts throughout the United Kingdom,Europe and the World!

It will be a umbrella body for all Filipino martial arts regardless of style

http://www.dannyguba.co.uk/html/w_k_e_a_o__instructors.html

Gives you the names of the people involved so far.
I believe at least one guy on there didn’t realize his name was there.

So you see people why there are so many questions re: WKEAO group.

Why is it so hard for someone from this organization to stand up and steer us in the right direction..
I guess we will never know aye...
I get the impression that the members of WKEAO will just come from DGDP, Lameco eskrima, Inosanto Lacoste kali system
I guess we will never know as all DGDP people have been told not to answer in this thread and NO one from the WKEAO has fronted up.
I guess I will have to go back to Lurking.....
Bye for now people.

Cheers

Ricknz

 

Rick...

Yep, typical Aries... hehehe a passionately stubborn hard-head hehe

You know what, my original RA instructor and I have had a bad fallout, but regardless, I still refuse to say anything bad about him, and honestly I do not hold any grudges against him. Holding grudges is a waste of energy. I still think my very first instructor was my best FMA instructor ever. Oh, and you want due credits? I'm sure you know who he is. Damien Alexander. Without him, I wouldn't be where and who I am right now. For what its worth, I thank you D. - There you go, due credits.

With regards to your idea as to what Rapid Arnis is... have a look at http://www.rapidarnis-london.com/about/default.asp for starters. That was written by Pat and sits on the front pages of the RA syllabus. You'll find some RA influences there.

If RA was 80% DP and the rest of it 20%, then I think it would be 1% of everything else then? Not to forget to mention, I believe RA is also influenced by Pekiti Tirsia, Muay Thai, kickboxing, Kempo, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now... IMHO, I see similarities in DP and RA, but I believe they are two totally different systems. (Being similar doesn't make it the same.) DP is a complete system by itself, which consists of sticks, swords, daggers, flexible weapons, empty hands, kicking, grappling, each consisting pages of drills in the curriculum. I don't see why bits of it have to be thrown out and replaced by something that come from different MA systems. I'm not saying its a bad thing. What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, it looks like Rapid Arnis has been totally redeveloped (in a good way). That means that DP might have been partly an influence - but influencing something doesn't make that something the same thing.

You've mentioned that DP is more flowy and RA is more intense. So are you saying that RA is less flowy and DP less intense? Honestly I see a humongous difference between DP and RA. Looking solely at the white belt syllabus, big big big difference. Not the same thing at all.

Pat is equaly pashionate about his system he developed Rapid Arnis International and Doce Pares original multi-style.
Did you mistype this sentence? Do you mean he's developed DP Original Multi-style, or are you saying he's developed his skills by learning this system?

I got the impression there was some sort of conflict beteen the two groups
Lol. There isn't. It's just me and my big mouth. hehe

Re: It is not the fact that your newsletter has been made public, it is the claims that are loosley made allowing misinterpretation that I have picked out for you to clarify.
Now I think it should be fair that you adhere to this statement too.

(eg. "I am estimating here (Im sure someone will correct me) RA has 80% of DP the other 20% is made up of what works from Pats previous systems.")

I'm sure estimations are "loosely made claims"? Hey, not your fault. It your perception of RA and DP based on your experiences. But how did you come up with that percentage anyway?

Are you also saying that RA is Pat's interpretation of DP? Why doesn't he call it O'Malley Doce Pares then? following 'Cacoy Doce Pares' or 'Guba Doce Pares'? Where's the due credit for 'Doce Pares'? Take note, whenever a joint RA and DP seminar/workshop is run, it is called a "Rapid Arnis and Doce Pares" workshop. Hence, I've always thought them to be separate/different.

Sorry, I'm just absolutely confused now.

And re: WKEAO

Sorry, still no news about this. Not interested unless I receive proper documentation just like what the BCKEAI's got (eg. mission statement, officers, rules, etc).


=== so... in conclusion, my question still stands. If the Pope thinks Hinduism is the best for him, why spread Christianity? And how do you think the Christians will react?


Luv
dhaynosaur

:Angel:

 

Warninig this post is way :topic:

thanks Dhay,that Re enlightens me a bit further on RA and it certainly puts my foot in my mouth on my "loosely made claims"...I might just keep my foot there saves me embarrising my self even more

Foot still in my mouth,its rude to talk with a mouth full

I think it is the way i interpretate things into writing is where i lose what i try to say.
Yes DP & RA are two differant systems and yes it is the similarities in both systems,which is my way of saying they are the same thing (which was the wrong thing to say,as it sounded right in my head ) so my apoligise for my bad interpretation.

I dont recall actually naming which system was which.

From my eyes as a newbiee There is actualy more similarities than differances and from my limited experience with RA ,the intensity is only one differance between the two systems.

http://www.rapidarnis.com/page2.html On this page are some of the similarities

Yes i mistyped the sentance.English wasnt my best subject at school.
It should read.
Pat is equaly pashionate about his system he developed Rapid Arnis International .As well as the Doce Pares original multi-style system that he learnt.
What i was meaning is Pat is equaly pashionate about both systems

ROFL nothing has changed then aye

Maths wasnt a good subject at school either.
*puts foot back in mouth *

NO im not saying RA is Pat's interpretation of DP,If it was then maybe he would of joined the band wagon of naming it O'Malleys Doce Pares..
Rapid Arnis has a lot of similarites with DP with the added experience of Pats previous systems that he trained in,Its this input that makes it differant to Doce Pares.
As far as due credit for Doce pares,The link you supplied
http://www.rapidarnis-london.com/about/default.asp gives credit to Doce Pares as well as number of other systems.
There are a few posts on the RA forum http://rapidarnis.yourfreebb.com/ where Pat recognizes differant DP teachers/GM
http://www.rapidarnis.com/page12.html if you look at the bottom of this page
you will see pat give credit to all his previous instructors including his present instructors
Rapid Arnis and Doce Pares are two differant identies,BUt Doce Pares is taught with in the Rapid Arnis group.
Have i confused you even more

Hey we are back on subject

Sorry nothing positive to say here.

Dam Religeon another subject i wasnt good at school

Cheers

Ricknz

 

BUt Doce Pares is taught with in the Rapid Arnis group.
Great for you if it was taught in yours. It wasn't taugh in either of the groups I've been in. I've only experienced Doce Pares within Rapid Arnis in a workshop (the last grading I've been to). And it wasn't differentiated which drill was Doce Pares and which was Rapid Arnis. (Or maybe I've gone deaf and just didn't hear it).

But seriously, the Doce Pares I am learning now is non-existent in the Rapid Arnis that I have known. (And vice versa). Or maybe Doce Pares is only manifested in higher level Rapid Arnis? (btw, by this i mean the details of movements and drills.)

That's why I like sticking to both coz I learn totally different things from each.

Re: religion
I was just using that analogy to explain my confusion.

Luv Luv
dhaynosaur

:Angel:

 

You came to a workshop preparing everyone for their Rapid Arnis Grading. That is why you will of mainly seen Rapid Arnis Syllabus stuff throughout the weekend.

But Dhay.....

Are you talking about Guba Doce Pares or Doce Pares Original Multi Style?

Are you talking about the Guba Doce Pares syllabus or the Original Multi Style syllabus?

Because once again They are different styles too, especially as GM Danny comes from GM Cacoy Canete's camp but has influences from GM Diony Canete so of course you will see differences from GM Diony Canete's Camp. It is GM Danny's version of Doce Pares, that's why he chose to call it Guba Doce Pares and you will often here him say when he is teaching, this is Cacoys, this is Diony's this is mine.

So why is is o.k for GM Danny to do this, but not us?

You do realise there are thousands of personal FMA styles derived from other styles , because when you learn a style, it becomes yours and often you will look different to someone else and interpret it differently even if you are from the same camp. Understand now?

I actually teach Doce Pares in it's entirity too, seperately to Rapid Arnis, but as a member of Rapid Arnis you should know that. So I do in fact know two syllabus's. Both of which I graded in seperately.

When people come to me they have the option of doing RA, DP or both.

Rapid Arnis is Pat's interpretation of his experiences of FMA accross the board (I will allow him to explain this to you in more detail), but out of all the styles that have influenced him he prefers the Doce Pares 'Original' Multi Style for it's curriculam and other personal reasons to him. Because preference in style is a personal choice.

But is he so far wrong?:

And I think it was said before that if you are going to be loose then it is o.k as long as you say so and make it clear. Using the word Estimate means to calculate roughly or guess. I think that makes it clear that he is not being specific, don't you?

I expect 80% sprung to mind because Pat has spent approximately, now I am estimating it here, so do not take it as gospel, 80% of his 25 years doing Doce Pares Original Multi Style.

This might help explain though; Remy Presas who founded Modern Arnis was originally from Balintawak and Balintawak and Lupunti were both originally Doce Pares, hence why I say, he is probably not as far out as you imagine, as alot of them are from the same background/similar lineage originally, but went on to spread their interpretation.

It would seem you are joining the gossip that we are not actually Doce Pares, when we are, just not solely as we enjoy other things too. It was just that a few years ago, Pat also went off to train with some other systems intensley and found they specialised in different areas of FMA that interested him, so he is not going to throw it away because GDP think he is wrong for doing it. Sometimes you have to look outside the box to advance your own knowledge.

And Rapid Arnis has an open policy that our students can train with anyone they like. Especially when they reach instructor potential, we recommend that they do. Some go off for a couple of years and then come back realising what we have said to them all along is true. "Accept the other styles and try them and you will understand your own direction and what you want to acheive from your training, if you find another style better suited to you then follow that path". Some only attend seminars from other styles, but they still learn alot about their own training and what works for them.

However you should know that even if you are solely Doce Pares, you can call your system whatever you like. It is the name of an organisation. There are lots of Doce Pares groups called something completley different and we always give credit to Doce Pares, you cannot deny that.

So are you saying that if I like you I have got to call myself Diana, to prove I really like you?

We tell our members that if they have been doing martial arts all their life, they shouldn't throw it all away because they start FMA. We freely allow them to demonstrate their prior skills and to show us how they apply them. If along the way it influences us to change certain things from experimentation and application, surely it is a good thing that we do not walk round blindly believing everything others do is crap and that would do actually test everything that we learn.

But we still teach DP in it's entirity seperate to Rapid Arnis, we do not change that. Rapid Arnis however allows us to pick what we consider to be the main strengths from different systems that have influenced us and also to add our own drills and training aids that we feel will benefit the students from our own experiences.

We do not insist they leave their prior MA training at the door. We embrace them. But if that is wrong by GDP eyes, then you may as well of just told us not to bother coming to GDP unless completely new to MA.

And if you read the link you provided properly, it does say the reason Rapid Arnis welcomes people from various styles is to promote the FMA as a whole.
This is what he was keen to do from the beginning of Rapid Arnis in 1993. It has just taken until now to meet like minded people from other styles, which is why as a group they decided to form the British Council at it was founded last year (2006). And any of them know they can walk in our club anytime and we would showcase them happily. We are not threatened in any way by our members seeing other groups. Ask GM Danny, we have sent many of our members to see him.

Any way keep digging, one day you might uncover the horrible truth that we actually are Doce Pares Original Multistyle and stop listening to Gossip.

Maybe you will understand this; After you attended our last workshop somebody said this to you "Totsada y larga is just a joke made up for Pat and Lucy's benefit, it does not exist".....Dhay will know who said that. Now get hold of a copy of the 'Original Multi Style' Doce Pares syllabus.....it first appears in there on page 42 out of 94 under level 4 Phase 2 and bearing in mind it took GM Diony ten years to complete I assume it was there 10 years ago too and guess where else it is? It is in the most famous DP form of all......San Miguel (Form 12) on the first quarter starting on the 64th move and ending on the 94th move out of 764 (I count all the double arko's as one move instead of two, for ease) and just to prove it, it is in the Doce Pares form book, which I gave GM Danny a copy of only last year, so perhaps you would like to ask to see it, then tell me I am not Doce Pares.

If we are not Doce Pares, why were we awarded lifetime mebership to Doce Pares? It's not because I can knit now is it?

I suggest you contact GM Dionisio Canete directly and ask any questions or doubts that you have and let him clarify our status with Doce Pares, instead of listening to what others want you to believe.

He has nothing to gain by telling you the truth, but others have got things to gain by telling you lies.

You cannot possibly say we do not give due credit to Doce Pares, it is all over our website, it is in every profile we submit and nearly every article we write, how is that not due credit?

Get a grip girl

Love Lucy :love:

 

Hi Lucy

First of all, please take note that I am not speaking in behalf of GDP. Never have. I have no right to do so. I'm speaking as me. As usual.

I've never said that you are not Doce Pares. I just got confused as to why Rapid Arnis was created when Pat just said that he thinks Doce Pares is the best for himself. Again, look at the Pope analogy. That's where my confusion came in. (I believe Pope Pat ). But you've given a good explanation and it now makes everything a lot clearer to me. Thanks!

Whew! I thought my Rapid Arnis training has all been in vain. lol

Oh, and finally... what gossip? I don't hear much gossip. And even if I do, I barely believe them. You know me, the skeptic. Hence I ask too many stupid questions. hehe

So. There. Thanks!

Luv
dhay

:Angel:

 

If I was to take the analogy serious, then you just called Pat Stupid.

Who on earth does not believe in something they have built themselves other than perhaps Wimpey Homes....hehehe

Your worrying about how the Christians will react. I am worrying about how Pat will react when he gets home and see's this thread.

Only joking.....

But one word of advice, don't look for someone to lead and be in charge of you, rather just guide you. With Rapid Arnis, you are not going to get what you perhaps percieve as a Master as we try and teach everyone to be individuals rather than followers.

Yes when you are learning, you mimic certain skills in the beginning, but once you have learnt the skeleton syllabus you are expected to learn so much more than one persons interpretation.

Many of our students find it relatively easy to go to another style and learn from another instructor, because we show them more than one way of doing one thing, right from the start, so when they are kicked out into the open world of FMA they do not feel lost or out of place. Giving them so many other options in the future if they so want them.


Love Lucy :love:

 

Okay, I'm going to ask everyone to take a step back for a minute. It seems to me that we've gotten a lot of different things going on here. And I want to take a minute to make some sense of it.

Here's what I see so far:

1) The mysterious WKEAO. I'm slowly coming to understand the role that organizations play in the UK regarding martial arts. Sounds like these things are more tightly regulated than they are here in the US. So I'm beginning to get that these organizations are important.

That said, it seems to me that nobody on this forum currently has a clear picture of this organization. And it seems smarter to me that we all hold judgment until such times as clear answers are available. Conclusion jumping doesn't seem to be helping anyone at the moment.

2) Ermar Alexander's background. I haven't had the pleasure. But from what I've seen, we've got a synthesis of miscommunication and marketing. Some of the language in the newsletter and subsequent posts strike me simply as persuasive writing. (e.g., "our style is so unique") I'm going to ask that we try and regard statements like that as quite clearly marketing speak. It's not concrete fact, but it's not really all that consequential either. So if we could all read that sort of statement for what it is, things would likely go more smoothly. We're all smart enough to know what constitutes a statement of fact and what constitutes "colourful description."

3) Business arrangements gone sour. This is personal business between the involved parties. They can hash it out via email or PM. (Though I suspect it's about as hashed out as it's likely to get for the time being.) The rest of the forum need not be in on it.

4) Relationship of Doce Pares to Rapid Arnis. My personal feeling is that "style" is a pretty fluid concept anyway. Being primarily Doce Pares myself, I can tell you that the material I learned 17 years ago from the Patalinghug family was different in many ways from the material I learned in seminars from GM Cacoy Canete. (Forgive my improper punctuation of the name. I haven't worked out how to do the symbol yet.) Besides, Doce Pares was first an organization of styles, to my understanding.

Regardless, that doesn't seem like the real question here. Or perhaps a question for another thread.

Two thoughts in closing.

1) There's a copious amount of smilies floating around, but I'm getting the distinct sense that we're all getting fed up with one another. Let's take a step back and try to remember that (to whatever degree it's true) we're all friends here.

2) Bias and agenda aside, what do we actually know about the WKEAO? If the honest answer is "nothing really", I suggest we just sit back and wait for things to develop a little more fully. Better than shooting at shadows.

Thanks gang. I appreciate your help.


Stuart

 

Hi Stuart,

As usual you talk perfect sence and I can see why you say we all need to take a step back, but unfortunetly questions have been raised by relative newbies as to what Rapid Arnis is and Rapid Arnis is not in realtion to Doce Pares and yes I do know it is off the initial topic ( hopefully one of the mods may well split this into another thread.) But I am not one to leave questions un-answered, especially from those who dont really know me. So in advance I do appologies but sometimes you have to do what you have to do. And I do so love to have clarity.

So here we go.
Mmmm! Your question is intriguing, and is quite loaded, thanks, I do love dizzies like this one, as it is always great to get some clarity.

The simple answer to this one is, because I can.

And as was so aptly put, why would I disregard all the valuable information from numerous Masters that have influenced me, how would that respect them given the fact they took time out to pass on this knowledge to me?

Rapid Arnis, for me is my way of not only passing on valuable knowledge gained over numerous years of training, but also paying respects to the unique individuals that have passed on their knowledge and entrusted me with it.

It is my expression of the FMA I have learnt from the various sources within the art, and if you read the history of all the DP instructors you will find that I am not that different really.

For instance:

How many people did GM Dionisio Canete train with?

How many people did GM Danny Guba train with?

Take a look at other DP instructors and ask yourself the very same question.

Now lets get to the name thing. I think that this is more of a case of, you can’t see the wood for the trees.

Guba Doce Pares, Doce Pares Original Multi Style, Cacoy Doce Pares (just 3 of many) now are they all the same? I think you will find that they in many ways are the same and in many ways they are different, why is that?

But they all carry the Doce Pares name I hear you cry ( a bit of pre-empting here dear girl).

OK let’s look at that shall we. One name, guess what it is? San Miguel, no not the beer, the style of the late GM Momoy Canete, hey I have just noticed, they are not called Momoy Doce Pares, does that mean they are not Doce Pares then?

Are you getting the point?

Why does GM Danny call his style Guba Doce Pares?, Why does GM Cacoy call his Cacoy Doce Pares? Why does GM Dionisio call what he teaches The Doce Pares ‘Original Multi Style’ SYSTEMS? And why did the late great GM Momoy Canete call what he taught The San Miguel System instead of Doce Pares?

Also if you do a little research in to the FMA, naming a style thing, if you look you will see it is actually a relatively new thing, the first name on record was the Labangon Fencing Club of 1921, is folded do to some internal wrangling but soon after in 1932 Doce Pares was formed, Now was Doce Pares the name of the style or the club?

Oh! I just realised again, it was the name of the club because there were 12 styles represented from the 12 founding masters, a little titbit of information for you here, the term style in the FMA is often associated with the person and not nessisarily the group.

For instance let’s take a look at the late Punong Guro Edgar Sulite who’s style is called LAMECO Eskrima, then Master Rey Galang who teaches and heads up Bakbakan, then of course we have GM Yuli Romo who calls it Ba’Had Zubu, they all trained in the Ilustrisimo style and were quite senior members under the late great GM Tatang, Now we also have GM Tony Diego who is the heir to the Ilustrisimo Style and he is easy to find because he calls it Kalis Ilustrisimo, but we also have the likes of Master Robert Morales who teaches the Olistrisimo Style. Are any of these fine gentlemen and Masters in their own right, any less considered not to be of the Ilustrisimo linage? No.

As I said, wood and trees, get my point?

Religion from an agnostic Mmmm! Interesting. The FMA my dear is not like any one religion, it is shall we say a mix of many beliefs, that is the wonderful thing about it, what one instructor say’s is Gospel is not necessarily another’s belief and that is coming from someone who believes all religions are valid as is all FMA styles / systems. GM Danny clearly quotes in Ermar’s news letter, “To learn Doce Pares you must have an open mind” if having an open mind means one must limit their experience to only one point of view, then you have missed the point.



Get my point?

You still cannot see the wood for the trees can you, which SYSTEM of Doce Pares are we speaking of here? The point of the answer was to say, I was influenced by several systems and all taught me very good aspects to the art, but on a personal level I found Doce Pares to be the best for me and the one that has influenced me the most, this does not mean I must disregard any of the other systems I learned from and this also does not mean that what they taught me was any less valid, it is just that GM Dionisio Canete and the staff at the DP HQ have played a larger role in what I do and how I understand it, but not to the exclusion of others.



Are you getting the point?

Also when you do see me on the odd occasion this is also a good way to communicate, but on those occasions you never speak, Mmmm. But to clarify I may have been given the title of Master, but lets make one thing absolutely clear, I am no-ones Master, A Master orders you what you should do, I like many other instructors guide you and show you your options, it is then up to you to make your choice as to which option is best for you.



I like to think of myself as more of a caretaker who has been given something precious and asked to look after it until such time as I can pass it on to someone else, this not only keeps the art alive but also keeps the memory of the people who taught me alive, hence I always say give credit where credit is due. And for me to just throw away what has been passed to be for the sake of just one point of view insults the very standards I live by.



Get the point?

Questions are good as if you never ask you will never know the answer, you should also ask the question of, Why should I limit my knowledge to just one person?



And again to answer the religious question from your agnostic point of view, The pope believes Roman Catholicism is the best for him, not Hinduism, but he has to accept that not everyone holds the same belief, some have no belief and others believe all are valid, he may not like it and would rather everyone was a Roman Catholic but he has to accept it for if he does not then he disrespects his own values of tolerance does he not?



Get the point?

If Ermar wishes to ask a question, then I think Ermar should ask it don’t you?



As I have said in the past, it is not what you say it is how you say it, the point you tried to raise was asked in such a way that many people would be led to believe you have an ulterior motive.

And disregard all I have learnt in favour of one point of view? That would not even be fair on my students, if I have learnt a valid way of doing something why should I keep it secret, and if it did not come from the group that is my preference then the students have a right to know that and Rapid Arnis gives me that opportunity to not only pass on knowledge of other great Masters but is also a way for me and my students to freely express themselves in any way they deem fit, dressing a wolf up in sheep’s clothing does not make the wolf a sheep now does it?



The Doce Pares Original Multi Style Systems under GM Dioniosio Canete (who I see as my personal guide) is another option I give to them because I like to give choices and for me personally it is another way I can express myself, does this make anyone any better or any worse than the other, No, and also because what is one mans poison is another man’s lunch, it just so happens I like it all, so whats so wrong with that?



Get my point?

And your point being ?

Well no one asked you for due credits but, good for you and that is a good thing to do regardless of how you feel about a person now they deserve the credit for getting you to any point in life.



Get the point?

As I said, I pay credit were credit is due and I give credit to all that influenced me in one form or another.

Actually I said Influence, I did not say RA was 80% Doce Pares, we teach the Doce Pares Original Multi Style Systems as a separate syllabus because of the amount of influence it has had on me I would feel it insulting to GM Dionisio to take anything away from the years of hard work he has put into putting together the curriculum.



And just because RA has other influences does not take anything away from it. Let’s look at it this way.



Should GM Dionisio Canete disregard the influence Boxing had on him? Should many of the Canete Brothers including GM Cacoy diregard the influence Judo had on them? Did the Saavedras disregard the influence a French swordsman had on one of them? Has the FMA disregarded the influence that Spanish played on their art and the people?



I am not saying you are German? In other words do you disregard the influence Germany has played on you? Does that make you any less a Filipina?



Get the point?

And which system within the DP organisation are we referring to here? I refer you to my last answer.



Are you seeing my point now?

Just took this out of your last point, do you not think this sounds a little bit like “I am not saying their crap”???? And how does a sentence like this usually end?



Loaded question?



Now if you feel the DP you are doing is a complete system then my recommendation is go ahead and do it, but that does not mean RA is not a complete system either does it? And what is a complete system? Is their such a thing? If there is, don’t you think we would all be training in it? Or would we opt for the incomplete system just for the hell of it?



No one person or system can lay claim to have all the answers, no one not even me. To give you an example, I interviewed GM Dionisio Canete the last time I trained at the DP HQ in Cebu (December 2006) I asked him why DP was so popular and he said: “Well I don’t know, there are many DP guys out there around the world and some don’t even use the name DP, but that’s OK they are still Doce Pares. Do we have all the answers, Are we the best, I don’t know, but what I do know is, we are the oldest”.



Now are you getting the point?

No it does not, this is just one persons perception of what they see, others may beg to differ as everyone takes out of it what they want. And is there a difference, really that big a difference, I suppose you see what you want to see.



Take the 12 strikes for instance, Rapid Arnis do it one way, Doce Pares Original Multi Style do it another and San Miguel Eskrima yet another, are they so different from each other? Or do they just simply have the same strikes in a different order?



Do you get the point?

What Rick means is and take it any way you like, I have the same passion for both systems, the one I developed and the one I train in too.



And this should answer both this question and the last question based on Rick’s perspective given.



I have two children, one girl and one boy, I am equally as passionate about them both, just one is more flowing and the other more intense, but at the end of the day they are the same, a mix of my genetics and my wife’s genetics.



There are many different styles of FMA, but all are genetically the same thing.



Now do you get the point???

I have no problem or conflict with any FMA group, but if people have a problem with me then not only do I not give a dam, it is their problem not mine.



Get the point?

Well it seems there is only a small portion of us that are adhering to this as my questions in my last post have so far remained unanswered.



One rule for one and another rule for someone else?



Get the point?

Why didn’t the late GM Momoy call his system Momoy Doce Pares and does it really matter?



And if there was a San Miguel and Doce Pares workshop, the difference would be?



Get the point?????

Some may well convert to Hinduism and others will hate the pope, but hey what’s so different about the various styles and systems of FMA, some like one way and some like others.



It is like the different versions of Christianity isn’t it, they are all reading from the same book but they are all on different pages and have different interpretations of the same story.



I am not saying that your not getting the point, but?

Well the RA Club you went to did not show you DP because I have not been teaching him the DP syllabus simply because his first aim is to learn the full RA syllabus as an instructor, but as many of my senior guys will tell you, the further up the ranks you go, the more influence from DP you will see, and if he wanted to learn soley DP then that is what I would have shown him, but he didn’t, his personal preferance is RA, now is that a good thing or a bad thing?



As for the workshop, that was for an RA grading, and as a matter of fact, I showed the Doce Pares Original Multi Style drill called Totsada ‘Y’ Largada, look at the RA syllabus it is in there too.



As I said about your confusion, I get the feeling you can’t see the wood for the trees.



Now do you really get the point?



Really do you?



Pat

 

Hi there,

Im an arnis practitioner in the Philippines and was a frequent visitor of this site, however I was not able to visit as often as I wished to.

i just have a question though, to my knowledge Arnis Philippines was the only recognized Arnis association by the Philippine Olympic Committee. Is PCKEAM the new recognized association instead of the previous organization.

Many thanks

 

I don't find that circumstance particularly unfortunate. And I think that this thread may just as well make the transition over to a discussion of Doce Pares and Rapid Arnis, as it appears that nobody has any further information on the original point of the thread anyway.

I'm all for clarity. And I want to be crystal clear about this, Pat: You hold more weight than I do in the FMA community. We both know this. How you proceed shapes how this forum proceeds, quite frankly. So I'm asking for your help in making it a calm and objective place to discuss FMA.

I couldn't agree more. Which is why, quite frankly, I'm a bit concerned about the overall tone of discussion here at the moment. It's hostile. And call me naive, but I don't think it needs to be that way. I don't think it builds understanding. It just hammers down the nails that stick up.

We all get the point. We all know that these aren't "sudden realizations." And we all know that "my dear" is being used somewhat facetiously in this thread. So I'm asking that we start fresh and seek clarity sans the bad feelings and frayed nerves.

The reason I'm just posting this as a regular comment is that I don't see any utility in editing people's posts, locking threads, and all that if we can't all reach some consensus about how we treat one another. If we can't self-govern a bit, this is going to be an uphill battle. And I don't see the point of that.

Thanks for your help everyone. I appreciate it.


Stuart

 

there's a new sheriff in town i see. :Angel:

 

Don't think of me as a princiPULL. Think of me as a princiPAL.

...

That gag doesn't translate very well into writing, does it. *shrug*