True... choke out , break an arm , wrist / joint manipulation .... all great skills but who the heck will come training next week if you crank it on this week ..... You will find Uke's in short supply !!!! You seem to have your mind made up already ....give judo and MT a go if they are available ... I dont know your club .. I did train wjjf when I first came to the UK ...it worked for me for a while ...now I have a very judo based style ... Keep trying Smurf
Why? Sanda manage to kickbox and throw simulaneously, they elbow in Thai boxing... If you can do it, you can spar with it surely? what particular nuances with regards to elbows and throws make them problematic to execute in sparring?
Broken limbs and crushed windpipes are not the natural conclusion of training viable restraining/grappling techniques. Judo/Bjj do this every day and in relative saftey.
Not the conclusion to my training I agree ...but it is just training ... and what are you training for ... a tap out in a one on one contest ? Seeking the perfect throw?, mastering a roundhouse kick ? The old argument of sport and martial arts rears its head again ... Judo competition can lead to breaks, dislocations and injuries ... contact sport...but to practice some techniques there has to be an element of control , to enter into them from sparring can be difficult and fraught with danger for those sparring or randori ..ie ude kujiki into harai Goshi.. (arm bar into sweeping loin) how many people have ever applied the arm bar and broken the arm then completed the throw ? Will the opponents body react differently to an arm break as opposed to the arm bar which breaks the balance and sets up the throw ? Horses for courses ... find what you like and train in it ...keep an open mind around other thoughts and styles... progress through practice Smurf
I tend to favour elbow strikes for entry to throws ... I dont know too many people who want to receive a couple of full force elbows to head, chest, sternum and then get thrown in a full sacrifice throw .... perhaps why elbow strikes are not used in judo .. My 10 cents Smurf
Your implication was that training chokes, small/large joint manipulation/hyperextension dynamically/with resistance would result in injury... But that is not the case. When you are working in a resistant fashion progression is key. But resistance is needed... else nevermind the armbar/armbreak, how do you know you can even apply the haraigoshi?
They can be trained in sparring with minimal gear (elbow pads/gum shield headgear maybe) at medium to hard contact. You might not find too many people who want to stand there like a lemon while it happens, however plenty people would and do spar that way. ... you just have to want to.
I am not implying it would...I am saying too much resistance could result in injury !! This a bit of thread drift ..back on track if the club suits the OP's needs great if not then find somewhere that fulfills your needs. WJJF worked for me for about 3 years after that I dabbled in other systems and am now in a judo based system which encourages uchikomi, randori and ground work ..it works for me . regards Alan
As someone who trains both ... bollocks. I agree with Alan in what he says, so I won't go over the same arguments. I will say however that's it is very hard to describe the level of resistance and training that occurs, particularly when making use of nasty techniques that if done at full power with or without resistance will cause injury e.g. the elbow strikes that were already discussed. It is something that is always in balance depending on yourself and who you are working with (experience level, body shape, size and other physical attributes) and a huge number of factors including what protective equipment is available and being used and what the end goal of the training is. To say something like ‘we do sparring like X’ is an extremely broad brush to work with and will in no way give an adequate description of what is actually being done. And yes an elbow to the face can still break a nose/cheekbone/eyesocket/teeth even when wearing common headgear, mouthguard and elbow padding. For me the be all and end all is, you are going to be the most effective at something you enjoy. If you enjoy something you are more likely to train harder and more often. Sure anyone could go and train in X art and be a fighting beast. But if you don’t actually enjoy training art X chances are you are going to quit so it all becomes a bit pointless. So, to the OP. Feel free to go and try other arts if available. But don’t throw away the idea of continuing with the JuJutsu you are currently at if you enjoy it.
thanks for the input but nah I am taking nothing to do with the wjjf the majority seem to testify there bad to awful and those who support them or think they teach at an acceptable level of quality can only offer the opinion that there good at some stuff or in some places or at some times which doesn't cut it for me, I am also hearing all this debate about the actual quality of jiu jitsu in Briton and its history which is another debt and one I am far to inexperienced to comment on but its pretty clear judo suits what I am looking for more . everyone's got there opinions but personally I smell a rat when it comes to them not to say that you wont get anything out of training under there syllabus but there just seems to be alot better out there and I am going to trust my instincts. looks like its judo and eventually muay thai as well for me, hopefully. thanks for the help and advice everyone. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52528 http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3065&highlight=WJJF a little further reading if anyone else is interested allegedly he was giving out black belts certified by them and he had no right to do so or something to that effect, it was in the sun and the mirror apparently but I cant find anything on it. this is all conjecture of course I am in no position to state this as fact
Quick reminder WJJF isnt japanese, and is a very different beast then the rarer japanese variety. No value judgement but whilst the cover similar areas, the context of them differ greatly. That said Judo is an excellent art/training programme, which is ideal for everyone, as is thai!
Then you should be aware of the variety of teaching styles and quality. To discount JuJutsu entirely, especially when you have no experience as a student at the school in question is irresponsible to say the least.
The better trad/gendai jujutsu schools out there are run by instructors who have judo experience. In my opinion the most high percentage/effective/useful techniques in jujutsu are the throws and pindowns ie the judo techniques. In judo you will spend all your time doing the things that can be objectively tested in class. You will grapple pretty much every session. You will learn better ukemi. You will learn kuzushi. You will train 'alive'. This is pretty much universal as quality control is very good within the judo community. The standard of jujutsu schools varies widely. Even in their better incarnations you will spend less time on any of the above as you will also spend time working on material that can only be trained in a complient fashion such as throat stikes, eye gouges, combinations of techniques that require a limb destruction etc... this is the limitation of the syllabus. Within the worst schools you will practice complient throws with zero kuzushi, poorly constructed dead patterns for self defence, poorly formed weapons techniques that have zero authentic koryu connection and do little to no randori. The club that the op was looking at was WJJF affiliated and the WJJF syllabus is appalling (from experience). Look at the website. The op already expressed concerns over the training at the jujutsu school he was attending. His posts expessed an interest in functional skill training involving active practice within the ranges they are studying (hence their interest in thai and judo). In my opinion the judo would serve his needs better and is a much more reliable and consitant source of quality training than the hit and miss jujutsu schools. The school in particular looked very poor. I think that my responses are far more responsible than you give them credit for.
A lot of the origional wjjf techniques were tested on the doors around Liverpool ....so I have been told .... and the practicioners were there to tell the tale !! this lends some credibility to there origional syllabus. I agree some of the methodologies were poor ... but I did come across some very good martial artists in the system ...admittedly 21 years ago I have no recent experience apart from some students who drift in and out of our club!!! I train with a more experienced judo player ...46 years on the mats to be precise ....and he has reworked and developed a lot of my throws and groundwork over the past 10 years or so...but he still looks for the perfect throw for himself and pushes us to achieve too!! Hello please dont tar everyone with the same brush ..as in a lot of martial arts the instructors tend to concentrate on the parts of the curriculum they like or are good at ...and the other stuff gets rarely if ever used ...hence the differences across associations.. pick what works for you ...normally the instructor or the peer group influence this descision ... train hard and often and enjoy your martial arts ..ignore the politics .. regards Smurf:evil:
I'm not saying that there are not good jujutsu schools out there, please believe me. In fact I have explicity stated otherwise. I just feel that Judo is a more functional art (even when compared to the better examples of jujutsu) due to the methodologies of it's practice, its streamlined training focus, its tight quality control and competetive elements. This is what I'm driving at really.. the closer the practice of jujutsu comes to judo in terms of teaching methodology and curriculum content, the better it becomes and the more competent its practicioners become at exectuting the various waza such as throws, locks, chokes, pins etc. I'm pretty convinced that a solid judo base is the best way to go with regards to jujutsu.
