Women in the FMA

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Pat OMalley, Jul 2, 2004.

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  1. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Lets be honest here, when it comes to sports like Billiards and Pool, men spend more time practicing these sports near the bar whilst women tend to do more intersting sports like getting the guys to pay for the drinks.

    Men spend more time in Bars practicing these type of sports, if women done the same the balance would even out.
     
  2. Tika

    Tika New Member

    My response was too general I think. When you throw weapons in the mix, the size and strength factor isnt as huge. I have to start reading the forum area where the thread was started and finding out more about hte style before I post :D....
     
  3. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    that's nonsence. The pro's on both tours aren't exactly getting drunk every night whilct practicing, are they. They have drill just like we do and practice with other top tier practitioners. You've not really described the "focused pool professional" in your comments.
     
  4. Diego_Vega

    Diego_Vega Frustrated pacifist

    Well, there are different types of pool games. For something like 8 ball or especially 9 ball, the break makes a big difference and power is what you need for a good break. (ala Django Bustamente or Shannon Daulton) For something like snooker....? I have no idea. (Don't understand it at all) However Jeanette Lee did enter a men's tournament one year and shockingly defeated some men along the way, including our own very talented Warren Kiamco. Luckily she went to Manila and was soundly trashed by Efren Bata Reyes to preserve one bastion of Filipino manhood.

    As for comments being "general" about topics like this, well, more often than not those are the accurate ones overall. There will always be exceptions to the rule. Weapons may be an equalizer to an extent, but only to an extent. A blunt weapon needs power to damage and speed to deliver (and you need power for speed) and accuracy to make contact. An edged weapons needs much less power. Empty hands? I'd hate to see Laila Ali in the ring against somebody like Fernando Vargas or Lucia Rijker against Richardo Mayorga.
     
  5. chenstyle44

    chenstyle44 Valued Member

    HI,
    My philosophy in training is geared more towards surviving than looking awesome, however, I have been known to do the flowery stepping under the arm throw type stuff.
    I also am of the idea that the individual is the best judge when it comes whether or not they want to spar, grapple, fight full contact, or survive an altercation.
    If a woman wants to test her skills and whether or not they could be used to survive a fight with a man than thats her prerogative. I think having a lot of air time dedicated to making a controversy about it is a waste of time and breath. That being said. Im a hypocrite!!!
    :p :p :p :p :p
     
  6. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    "Gusto ko lang magkwento..."

    I too would like to share my experience. Please bear in mind that unless we can come up with some figures, we will never really know if women can consistenly compete against men, in a simulated or a real fight. However I think that we can safely abandon the idea that "women will necessarily have the disadvantage".

    I have been into escrima, albeit informally, since I was five years old. I had sparred with as many men as I can and I have held my own. More than a year ago, I thought that I would "teach" my girl friend some arnis as a way of keeping fit for her and also as a means of self-defence.

    Starting off, I must admit I was a bit smug about my position as guro to my GF. We went through some numerada, teaching her how to swing to hit and then how to block. When I thought she had it pretty much okay (actually, I thought she was rank amateur), I told her to swing at me any which way she liked and I will defend. I was confident, having had to use my skills to defend myself on a number of occassions.

    Her initial swings were easily blocked and countered, and she was getting discouraged. Then I remembered that she played tennis, so I said in sudden inspiration to pretend that whatever target she wants to hit, pretend it is a tennis ball and hit it. Shortly after that, I stood there in my best "at-ready" conflict position and said "Go!"

    One can guess that the story ends with me getting clobbered. And one will guess rightly. She sidestepped each of my attacks and hit the nearest target (my knuckles) very, very hard. When she had pity on me and stopped targeting my knuckles, she targeted my elbows. I threw in the towel 21 bruises and zero ego later.

    Later, I had my brother (a much better fighter than me) go after her, ending with pretty much the same result. In tennis, one sees the ball going in, moves laterally just enough to be in range of a swing; which she does everytime. I later found that I had to use a "counter the counter" tactic just so I can get in as many hits as she does.

    And you may very well be right, sir. In fact, I think that if there are instances that women have not done as well as men, is probably because they have been limited to "just that proper way" of doing things. Remember, I was dominating my GF when I taught her the "traditional" way of the numerada, and the traditional attacks, blocks and sinawali drills; but when I told her to swing away like she does in tennis, I had to train further just so I would not be hugely embarrassed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2004
  7. LastFMArnisador

    LastFMArnisador New Member

    Seen this coming, he he he XD !

    AWW Poor little Gryphon... did your GF ruffle a few of your pretty proud feathers ? ;)

    he he he.. this kind of stuff is all but funny to me... big burly dude, thinks he's the king of the world, until a cute little girls starts fighting like mad, and kicks butt to boot.. :D
    Jeez, and she trained tennis before taking up FMA ? uh oh, somebody's gonna get his living daylights beaten outta him, putting men to shame ! ;)

    G'luck with your hard training... (better do, before your GF becomes a living FMA Demoness ! beating the guys for all the hard times they endured under us brutes... XD ! joke lang pare ! easy ka lang ok ? (kidding ya, man, go easy on your Gf, ok ? )

    on the other hand.. women do benefit from MA training.. FMA too is a good place to start.. but the advantages/disadvantages of women in FMA (and any other MA), is nothing but insignificant... (just my thinking.. if a woman can stand up to a guy in any FMA (or another MA for that matter), then all the better..) it all depends on their willingness to learn, skill progression and other countless factors...

    Women prefer soft MA styles, as far as i know. And aikido is a good example.. nowadays, this gender gap is closing in on all MA's, FMA is no exception. ( but the big problem is how to keep them there once they start training ? )

    I read in a book once that Leo Giron teached his style to women during the 70's and 80's due to high crime rate against women in USA back in those days.. And in the Doce Pares school, there is a woman who holds a high rank in the style... dunno who she is but she is said to be good in forms(sayaws)... this is what i've heard so far within my peers in DPA (Doce Pares Arnis).

    to finish this, i wholeheartedly believe that women is SORELY needed in the FMA...
    if only the men would stop ogling on the poor girls and go agressively when training with them... guys like us.. we're brutes.. :cry: (cant blame us on that, fellow sisters, we be brutal against eachother.. its in our genes, unfortunately *embarrased*) so to promote this lethal art to them, then it should be for the purposes of selfdefense.. and also for keeping up with the men too.

    FMA should be open for all, men as well as women... :D

    TO GRYPHON:
    what does the latin passage of your signature mean ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2004
  8. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Masakit yun, ah!

    Ay, grabe! Don't I know it! One of the things I thought were impossible was that she can actually hurt me. I mean, I've seen other women do those tippity-taps and I thought, he-he, I'll show her what a man I am. But she really hurt me. I mean, it was only on the knuckles and elbows, to be sure, but there are a lot of things one can't do well when your knuckles are caput (oooh, I dreaded everytime I "had to go").

    Don't worry, p're. My brothers and my Dad made fun of me worse than you did, not to mention my GF herself (one of her fondest memories, too; sheeeesh!). And I deserved it for underestimating any opponent.

    It's taken from the Vulgate version of the Bible, Parabolæ Salomonis XVII:28 is Latin for Proverbs 17:28. Sorry, don't have a Bible handy to write it out word for word, but it essentially it says that a person is not counted wise just because he talks a lot, or says a lot, but sometimes the quiet persons know more than the big talkers. I have to remember that always, especially on a public forum like this.

    You're right. My GF wanted to study Tai Chi. Don't know why, really. Probably because it's all graceful and stuff (more opportunities for "ogling", you think? :D )
     
  9. Estel Authorion

    Estel Authorion Regrets my stupid posts

    I'm in pain!

    Thanks a lot bro for letting the cat out of the bag!:woo:

    Yeah, that is why I prefer sparring with females now. I find that I get a lot more skillful trying to keep up with all that speed! And they are pretty cool about attacking a guy en masse. I got at least four women try to hit me (okay, okay, they hit me a couple of times. . . allright, a LOT of times). That was the best training for mass attack I ever got (bruises and busted knuckles everafter).:love:

    One of the good things about the training sessions was that they have lost the hesitation to strike a guy out to hurt them. That attitude makes a lot of difference in self-defence.

     
  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Okay, Let's talk nonsence, How can you compare pool or billiards to FMA, if we are honest about it 90% of men practice and play Pool & Billiards and 10% of women play with 90% of those women playing only to be involved and participate with their boyfriend or husband in an event they can both be involved in. As a matter of fact I have been playing pool for over 15 years and my wife is 14 year my younger, she is a far better pool player than me and is captain of our local pool team. I on the other hand am considered to be a better FMA practitioner, not because I am a male, but because I have more expeariance and time involved in the arts (over 20 years) but on saying that when it comes to sparring, she can at times be my worst nightmare.
    My wife is far lighter and very much the female and she competes with me on an equal level when it come to sparring, and beleive me I spar her as I would spar anyone be they male or female.
    I you train and treat a woman with kid gloves then that is how she will fight, if you train her to fight as you would figtht then that is how she will fight.
    Fighting with weapons is an equaliser, ask any soldier (I know I was one once). If you get hit in the head with a good shot from a 3 year old child you will go down, so why think that just because the person is female that tshe can't hit you as hard or as fast or with accuracy. This kind of approach can and will get you hurt (if you are lucky).
    More and more women are holding their own against men but then again more and more women are taking part in what is to be frank a male dominated environment.
    When the women start to out number the men is the FMA we will have the same conversation but the roles will be reversed. That is why we have adopted a system of sparring that has no gender divisions, only weight catagories.

    Mabuhay

    Pat O'Malley :love:
     
  11. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    Thanks Patt you did a good job. We we're simply adressing the manual dexterity / spacial awareness aspect in men and women (it was braught up as part of the strenght issue). That's great if you girlfriend can beat you at pool; always more enjoyable to play someone more capable than yourself. If we step outside of your microcosm of two, however, the top women pool players cannot compete with the top 100 men.

    Thanks.
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I'm sorry but you comparison of Pool to FMA has no real bearing on the subject, one requires a table, a cue and some balls. The other requires skill, the willingness to survive a confrontation (you could say balls), and a weapon.
    One is a sport and the other is a method of self protection with some aspects of the art that have been turned into a sport.
    It's a bit like trying to compare surfing to cooking. :confused:
     
  13. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    well, you could have said that origionally, you look a bit silly now. You've argued the other case but now you say there's no comparison.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2004
  14. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    still trying to stay out of this one....
     
  15. Diego_Vega

    Diego_Vega Frustrated pacifist

    Shootodog,

    Don't you spar againsts women on a regular basis?
     
  16. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    i only work on my wife's guard game and her full mount :D. seriously, i've sparred with my wife (judo/ grappling) and with karen manalastas (who took the silver in the last wekaf). i'd say that it prepares them for fighting men.
     
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    If you feel I look silly then that is ok as long as it makes you feel good. If I really wanted to look silly I could have countered your argument with a similar argument of "why do women make better ballet dancers than men".But then again balet dancing takes strength co-ordination, dextierity and even spacial awareness, all of the things you need to become a good Eskrimador.
    I went along with your argument because I feel that in any given sport, if you get two people with the same strength, the same build and the same talent all being equal the gender of the competitor should not even come into it.
    Arnis, Eskrima, Kali depend heavily on weapons combat and if you have sparred to any degree of reality with weapons you will know that again gender does not come into it, skill and determination are the keys to winning a weapons based fight, not strength and masculinity.
    You will find that if any female trains the same way as her male counterpart and is not given the kid glove appraoch just because she is female and allow her to spar on an equal basis with the men, she will devlope and compete on equal terms and her chances of winning will be the same as anyone elses.
    A lot of instructors and students in martial arts treat women differently and tend to go easier on them, becuase they feel that is the right thing to do, they then tell them that they can defend themselves against a male attacker, this is wrong.
    To be confident that a women can defend herself again a man you have to first train her the exact same way as you would a man, you spare her no quarter because she is a woman, as a matter of fact there are times when you have to be harder on her to make her realise that fighting is not about gender, it is about winning.
    Some women do not feel complete in there training untill they have sparred with the men on an equal basis and rightly so, you are short changing them if you treat them differently.
    After all, how many muscles do you need and how much testosterone do you need to defeat someone if you have a weapon in your hand???
    A 3 year old can cut you with a knife, but an angry trained female Eskrimador with a weapon in her hand can tear you apart no matter how strong you think you are.
    If anything, the male has a disadvantage in the bout, espeacially if he is foolish enough to think the femal is the weaker sex, considering that it has been genetically proven that they have a higher pain tollerance, have more dexterity and have better spacial awareness, that is also why they make good gymnast's, as a matter of fact they do say they are better at gymnastics than the men. And if you know your women they can be more stubborn, determined and when they want to be, more vindictive when put under pressure.
    As they say "God help those who feel the wrath of a woman scorned".

    All the best from just being silly ;)

    Pat O'Malley
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2004
  18. RichieRich

    RichieRich Valued Member

    er, okay Pat.I don't feel good at all, I feel bad for you.


    I don't see the women ballet dancers lifting the men up too often, but that's probably cultural.


    "been genetically proven that they have a higher pain tollerance, have more dexterity and have better spacial awareness".

    Genetically proven or clinical proven? If you're going to make stuff up, at least use the right words, Pat. Thanks for a very personal and subjective view of the issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2004
  19. Linguo

    Linguo Valued Member

    it's not the sex, it's the person

    on a side note, some theorize that our tendency to discourage women from physical activities at an early age plays a large part in their physical development, and that it may not be genetics, but a social factor that has limited women's physical capacity.

    At the risk of generalization, I will say this about women and pain endurance: As a man, I don't know if I could endure the pain of childbirth. And watching reality shows that focused on pain endurance (okay it was just Real World vs. Road Rules), women tended to do better than those big strong guys. Yeah, it's a limited observation, but just something I've noticed.
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Lets pretend for one minute that I agree with your views, I would say that was a right womans answer. ;)

    You obviously feel that women are the weaker sex but if you like you can spar my wife :eek: . It will have to be after January though as she will be training her high pain tolerance by giving birth then. :yeleyes:

    In fact do you fancy going to the birth for me as the prospect of being in the same room as her will scare any grown man with an ounce of sense. :woo:

    All the best


    Pat ;)
     
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