Women in Martial Arts Training

I have started this thread so we can discuss (in an isolated environment) some of the issues that we as instructors face when teaching women to protect themselves.

It is no secret that there has been widespread criticism of the methods of the Bujinkan by various "alive proponents." In a recent thread , kusa posted links to footage of the ISR Matrix form of training.

Those links can be found here:

http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/isrle25mb.wmv
http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv
http://www.isrmatrix.org/

In response, I posted a critique of the footage .

There were sixth components to my response.

First, that the movement in the video was focused on "getting the lock" rather than controlling the spatial terrain and the balance of the opponent

Second, Taijutsu is *NOT* about leverage.

Third, an acknowledgement that the movement can be learned in relatively short amount of time (which is *GOOD* for certain situations, such as when you have little time with someone and need to get a few simple things ingrained).

Fourth, that this type of training is "effective" for those who work out every day and stay in top physical condition.

Fifth, that this type of training is *NOT* very "functional" (a claim of its proponents) for over 50% of the population (i.e., women).

And Sixth, if one trains in this way that you will never understand Hatsumi-sensei's budo (in my opinion).

I'd like to focus on claim four, because it has caused some controversy (evidently).

I personally do not feel that the type of training shown in the video would be particularly functional for a majority of women (or people over 45 for that fact). I acknowledge that there *ARE* exceptions, but I am not talking about Laila Ali here. I am talking about "normal people."

As a human species, there are several things that distinguish men from women. Setting aside reproductive or hormonal differences, women face several hurdles as a result of those differences when faced off toe-to-toe in a punching match with men.

The first and most important is physical size. Humans, like Gorillas, show (on average) a large disparity in size between members of the male sex and members of the female sex than many animals.

With size comes mass, this includes bone weight and muscle mass. Both of which become "force multipliers" all else held equal.

As someone who has seen first-hand women battered at the hands of their husbands, it is clear (to me) that trying to go toe-to-toe in a punching match with a man is a sure way for a women to get disfigured (seen it) or killed (had to be stopped at gunpoint).

Trying to force a technique on through strength or speed is simply asking for a lot of unnecessary work and potential harm to self.

As I have described, good Taijutsu is not about leverage. As DWeidman described, if you offset the mass held up by the legs, it is a heckuva lot easier to "get something on" someone, than if the opponent has his/her legs under him/her.

The traditional way in the Bujinkan of handling this issue is to physically manipulate someone (create "kuzushi") then apply the technique, such as a lock. I believe that Hatsumi-sensei has gone even further in his movement and now does not even physically manipulate people; he instead manipulates the spatial terrain, which by default, manipulates the person. This is what I mean when I talk about manipulating the kukan (or playing with "kukan balls").

I believe that teaching "getting on techniques" such as that seen in the ISR Matrix video *WITHOUT* a concerted effort to teach either "kuzushi creation" or "kukan manipulation" is simply irresponsible and potentially *VERY DANGEROUS* to women, a majority of the human population.

I honestly believe that the average women (not Vasquez from "Aliens") will find herself in grave danger if she tries to leverage a technique on an angry male who (on average) will be significantly larger and stronger than she is.

I think it is far more wise to use intellect, technology, and intuition to help women keep from (1) getting into dangerous situations in the first place, and (2) escaping dangerous situations, than it is to have them strapping on gloves and trading punches with 25-year-old cage fighters.

Your mileage may vary.

-ben

 

The basis of live grappling is gaining a positional advantage, not aiming for a particular technique. Concentrating on applying a technique without regard for position is a well-known indicator of poor poor practice and is not in particular evidence in the clips. The work in them is actually quite relaxed and in most such training, you are discouraged from using strength.

If you honestly examine the sequence of actions, the attempt to gain superior position, instead of "getting the lock," is obvious. You are mistaking work to attain superior position for work to apply a particular technique.

I find it paradoxical that you claim people who train in such a way will never understand Taijutsu, when if this were true, Nagato would suck. So would anybody with judo experience, which is what -- every Japanese senior and Hatsumi himself? -- because that's how they all do it.

You really must better familiarize yourself with the principles at work before making definitive comments about them.

 

It took ten years of constant exposure to Hatsumi-sensei for Nagato-sensei to purge himself of his habits resulting from this type of training. Don't believe him, ask him.

The probability of someone reading this thread on MAP in English having ten years of constant exposure to Hatsumi-sensei to purge their habits is as close to zero as one could say.

I stand by my statement.

-ben

 

1) You are mistaken as to what "this type of training is." You mischaracterized both the goals and the attributes at work. They are not using raw strength or entering to directly apply a technique. Therefore, you are critiquing a strawman, and not the actual method in the clips.

2) You said "never," but you really meant, "after a decade?" What about the hard, resistant randori supposedly practiced in the early Bujinkan? Was Hatsumi making a mistake? Did he damage his students only to "fix" them later? That would be a pity.

3) Your statement becomes really interesting when you think of Sean Askew, given that his NHB work *with* Hatsumi. This would mean that Hatsumi is helping him worsen his Taijutsu, which would be odd.

 

Ben you need to roll with any of Luis's guys or gals if you don't think they use kuzushi. Luis has a background is in judo which is part of the One Dragon curriculum. Any decent throwing art deals with kuzushi.

 

Baloney. There is no way that an average woman could "get on" those techniques without substantial leverage or physical strength. The average woman would be tossed around like a doll by those guys.

I've been doing martial arts for over 25 years and I know what I am seeing.

Please show me one thing in the second video that an average woman could perform in "preparation" for the dangers of the real world.

http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv

For the audience here (English speaking with zero probability of having ten unbroken years of exposure to Hatsumi-sensei), I mean "never"... for the *SECOND* time.

Yes. Don't believe me. Ask him.

Sean really hates it when MMA types use him as an example for their agendas. Please be warned.

As to your conclusions, Hatsumi-sensei will support the decisions of his students with great aplomb. That includes good ideas and bad ideas, including black belt video courses and so on.

I think it is fair to say that Hatsumi-sensei honestly likes Sean and wanted Sean to succeed in whatever floated his boat. Hatsumi-sensei also happens to know a few things that can assist someone in the ring (believe it or not).

But I do *NOT* believe that Hatsumi-sensei believes that supporting a student who wants to compete means that he is helping that student to learn "Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu" better. There is a difference, in my opinion--helping them do better in the ring versus helping them to better understand the art as he is teaching it.

Do you actually think that the type of training shown in this video is the "best" (under whatever standards you use) for women?

Honestly.

-ben

 

If she is a cop yes.

 

Reposts from the "women vs. men videos" thread:
about 1:20 in
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw6F55VJDwo"]YouTube[/ame]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jue7_27D9_8&mode=related&search=

Clearly these poor girls haven't been told that their frail little hands and delicate, non-cauliflowered ears are unsuitable for the rough and tumble, strongman world of MMA.

 

Wow.....just wow....I think I'll just start with the most outlandish claim, and work backwards from there. Care to elaborate on this part Ben?

So Hatsumi Sensei now has gone beyond what we know of the physical realm, and can warp time and space to overcome his adversaries without contact?

 

The average person of any gender who doesn't know how to grapple will be thrown around by people of any gender who do, so your statement doesn't really apply to the issue at hand. And once again, your phrasing implies that you don't understand the process at work. People are not trying to "get on" techniques. They're working at a superior position from which techniques present themselves.

I beg to differ. Well, scratch that -- I don't "beg" at all. But you know what? You can find this out yourself. Go to virtually any grappling/MMA school and test yourself. Don't even bother with a professional fighter -- a casual student of considerably fewer than 25 years would educate you, and not just by submitting you. That person would also explain and demonstrate how positional advantage precedes application.

Most of it. There's really not much force-against-force going on. Many of the throws where one person gets behind the other are nice and smooth, in fact. This is because most of what they're doing is no based on strength at all. That's why it's quick and continuous. Live training does not have to employ strength and in fact, that's discouraged.

Well, then he can just stop doing MMA, if that pains him so.

So Hatsumi, in specifically coaching Sean Askew, is making his Taijutsu worse. Since, y'know, he's talked about direct coaching, not just asking for permission and abstract support. It's not Hatsumi nodding when somebody wants to make videos. He's actively helping someone do something you say is bad for his development. That makes you wrong, or Hatsumi a jerk.

It's a component of the best type of training. The average person (man o woman) is not ready for that kind of thing right off the bat. They need a progressive introduction to more and more dynamic opposition because the psychological attributes aren't there. MMA sometimes has problems in just setting a bar and not helping people reach a certain performance level, and in not letting people follow through with less resistance first -- but the resistance must be there, and it must be used to hone fundamentals. After that, you can play with your space balls to your heart's content.

Honestly, I think your suggestions aren't just mistaken -- they're dangerous. You encourage people to explore esoterica before having a solid foundation of tested skills. Not everyone who trains with live, dynamic resistance is going to be an MMA fighter or even a dedicated martial artist, but without that core, their training lacks meaning. It's playacting and exercise.

Philosophically, budo is about truth -- not being true to your school or true to a set of ideas, but deriving a perspective on life based on training for its extreme aspects. If your training does not point to those, then it lacks a sincere basis from which to derive *anything* -- self defense, self awareness or anything else except for an anemic sense of belonging.

 

Whole post was dead on, but that just stood out. Really drove the point home, well said.

 

Yeah, but I still like kata over in that other thread in that place with those guys.

 

Yeah but which one are you marrying?

Seriously though, these ladies hardly typify the high-heeled tipsy girls in greyhound skirts that tend to be the victims of real violence on the way home from a night out.

 

This is yet another pointless argument because neither side truly understands the other's point of view.

Even most Bujinkan students haven't really sussed kukan so people from other arts aren't going to get it.

I don't know what kind of girls some of you guys hang with and I'm not being derogatory to women but none of the women I know apart from a yondan at my dojo would be able to use harldy any of what was in the above mentioned videoclip Ben referred to. Plain as. But I know that there is a heap of stuff that they (and I) can use effectively as long as they are not being attacked in the street by MMAists which would be another problem altogether.

 

In other words, *NOT* the "average woman" as I suggested.

Said nothing about warping the physical realm as we know it. If you are really interested in these claims, please use the search button. I've been saying the same thing for two years now.

It completely applies. Please refer to the thread title. And then please provide me with an example of something on the second video (time stamp please) you would honestly teach to a women preparing for the dangers of the real world. Thanks.

Precisely.

Soke was coaching Sean to become a good ring fighter, which is what Sean asked of him. It does not make him a "jerk" to help someone with a request. :bang:

Wrong. The average woman would *NOT* be ready for (or helped by) this type of training, imo.

You clearly understand very little about crimes against women or the real danger that they face in the real world.

Please arrange a visit to a woman's shelter to speak with a counselor. Please take along this footage and try to convince the counselor that what you are teaching will actually help real women who are victims of crimes. :bang:

May all your choices be good ones.

-ben

 

How about Gina Carano?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bl-dTIjO8Q"]YouTube[/ame]

 

Ok, i'll bite. I'm not good enough at BJJ to open an academy, i'm just a blue. But i've informally taught this stuff to some female friends in my activist group.

It's worked. I've seen a punk rock girl slap an arm triangle on a nazi skin. You know why? Because the training in that video is what an actual fight looks like.

 

I'm sorry they're not little doll-like paragons of femininity or whatever stereotype about female athletes you'd like to bring to bear, but good martial arts training will make you physically fit.

 

To the OP: you're full of crap. More later.

 

Oh yeah, punk rock girls hanging out with neo nazis.... That's an "average woman." :bang:

Whatever guys....

-ben