Polar Bear, Just because you don't study beyond Doebringer ( as you said yourself ) doesn't mean I don't. We can argue all day about this, the truth still remains ( like it or not ) that Liechtenauer is considered the father of German swordsmanship! One must ask why is this person considered the father of German swordsmanship? Tell me Polar Bear, do the Scots have ill feelings against Americans? or perhaps you just are hostile towards me? You stated: "Medes, you talk like we don't know all this stuff." I say: If all you do is study Doebringer ( which is what you said originally ) than you cannot ' know' anything beyond Doebringer. Knowledge= understanding+ experience. If you have run a school of German swordsmanship for three years then why do you just study Doebringer? Though I am of the philosophy of Liechtenauer ( as I shall call it, ) I do study more than just Liechtenauer. As always I try to communicate in a gentlemanly manner, but it seems that all most people ( with whom I have conversed ) do is fight with me and each other! Is this the kind of site I should expect from MAP? Must you insult me? Shall I insult you? I have not yet ( and what I said about being a closet HochMeister Johannes Liechtenauer fan was not an insult. ) While I appreciate that you sent a link from your school, I cannot take any school seriously that studies only one portion of a science and art and does not at least try to come to a greater knowledge ( again, knowledge= understanding+ experience.) It sounds to me like you're a man of great pride and incapable of being taught anything as such ( for a proud person cannot be taught anything as his or her pride would get in the way.) If you are not capable of civil conversation then I am not interested. As for scholars, I am a scholar of arms and I do know my stuff ( at least in the areas of my study and practice.) We both own manuals, we both study and practice, so we could argue and do this ' one-up-manship' all the day long and it would serve no purpose than to show-off in front of other MAPers and gratify our egos. So, as I am a student full-time and work as a TESOL ( Teacher of English to Speakers of Other Languages ) tutor, a fast-food employee, a junior ranked WMA Instructor ( with more than junior knowledge and skill, ) and a landscaper ( sometimes ) with a wife and 5 children to support, I am not all that wealthy and often busy, So, I propose that if you have the means come to see me in the southwestern US where my family and I will treat you with hospitality and kindness as our honored quest and where you and I can spar to our hearts content and settle this matter once and for all. If I caused you to feel that you loss face with all I said, I certainly did not intend to do so, and I apologize. Still, I stand my ground on the issue at hand. Respectfully, I await your response.