Here’s the thing, watching either Machida from fight and their movement in mma resembles their movement in kumite competition. The stances, punches and kicks, foot sweeps. They’ve clearly adapted their karate to mma. Horiguchi was similar, still sometimes is, but in his more recent fights he’s gravitated towards boxing. Conor McGregor even, actually really employs a traditional back stance. Though his striking is definitely informed by boxing. In none of those videos you posted did anyone do anything that resembles Wing Chun. No trapping, no chain punching, no Wing Chun stance. If you want the take the hard line karate competition isn’t real karate... sure. But you’re drawing a line in the sand that 1) most people who actually study the art don’t draw and 2) no one who actually uses it to fight draws.
Where did I say that or draw that line .quote me please I simply said its the same argument and it is, in both cases people are saying those fighting don't look like how they should look if they were using the kata properly, that was my point. And chain punching and trapping aren't wing chun, neither is the stance apparently I happen to normally take the side of someone who can actually show the art working than those who can only say what it should look like, my point was simply both arts have the same argument going on that's all
We're talking about a full-contact karate competition circuit and what it looks like in practice in addition to the karateka in MMA and what they look like in practice. We're not navel gazing about what karate "might" look like in practice; we're talking about actual karateka in Bas Rutten's Karate Combat, actual karateka in the UFC and Bellator, etc.
I disagree that both arts have the same thing going on. The karate that we see employed in the cage is widely accepted as a similar- but clearly much more hardcore- version of karate that people can learn going to a karate dojo. Shotokan for the Machidas, Kempo for Steven Thompson, etc. There is a small minority- and on this thread non karateka- arguing that sport karate is not real karate... but that’s a rabbit hole I choose not to go down. Point is, you learn karate from a modern karate dojo, you can see those same movements, strikes, tactics and use of distance in the cage. Doesn’t mean you can do them yourself. Nonetheless there is concrete evidence of the style(s) being applied effectively. Nothing in any of the videos you posted is what someone walking into a Wing Chun school will learn. In fact, in terms of the strikes (the hooks and upper cuts) you’re taught not to do those. And you’re taught complete different stance and footwork to the boxing stance and footwork in the videos you posted.
I can't weigh in on the Wing Chun side, but on the Shotokan side... Gyaku tsuki! Gedan barai! Gyaku tsuki, soto uke! Those basic mechanics, and the hooking the heel and pulling the lead leg that help them work, are all things that are commonly taught in Shotokan dojos. The question "what if a gedan barai is a takedown instead of a low block" isn't asked on the first day of training, but on the other hand, it IS very commonly asked once someone gets the body mechanics down (this is the very concept of bunkai in Shotokan...finding different practical applications for those mechanics once they're drilled into muscle memory). I remember discussions of "ukes aren't really blocks" long before Lyoto Machida made it big in the UFC, and my first Shotokan instructor used that lead-leg hook-and-pull on me all the darned time, and he had never spent a day cross-training in MMA as far as I'm aware (this was also before Machida's UFC success). Yes, more permissive and fluid sparring is going to help more people achieve practical application of theory and kihon like this, and help them realize where they need to cross-train (grappling and groundfighting especially), but that's part of what Karate Combat is trying to achieve. Isn't that a good thing? Again, why so much negativity for something that I think is a very good thing to add to the menu of "what Shotokan training can be" and "what ****o-Ryu training can be" and such? (Sources for the images are UFC 98: Lyoto Machida ushers in new light-heavyweight era in win over Rashad Evans and Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate )
The bits of boxing he's adopted solve the main problem of competition Shotokan fighters, which is the lack of safe ways to exit the pocket. If they could just send all these Karate Combat guys on a two-week boot camp where they learn to weave out after throwing their rear hand these fights would be ten-times better.
No negativity from me. Just bolstering the opinion that "karate striking" can (and should be IMHO) more than that just ippon kumite inspired long range stuff. Actually I think the more modern developments in sport fighting can compliment the older kata inspired in-fighting style really well. Imagine a fighter with the movement, timing and explosive kumite style of Machida combined with the mauling, dirty boxing of Couture! A truly horrible opponent to fight. # Did a Kyokushin offshoot (Shidokan) up to 1st kyu. I'm not arguing that sport karate isn't true karate. I'm just trying to point out the legacy and history of karate that means there are many ways to "do" karate (to the point where the word karate is pretty meaningless in trying to define something). That the sport side of it is not the whole picture and actually can be at odds with what is shown in the kata.
I agree that the sport side isn’t the whole picture. My point- not necessarily in reference to your earlier posts- is simply that sport karate is essentially part of karate. It’s what you learn- generally though I’m sure people can find exceptions- when you learn karate. Kyokushin and it’s offshoots is actually a good example. You learn how to punch people in the face, you learn kata, but the knockdown karate tournaments don’t necessarily reflect that... but no one would argue participating in those tournaments isn’t real kyokushin. Quite the opposite in fact.
in case anyone wanted to catch up on this one. Extravagant location again: One World Trade center. "hooks" seem to be permitted in this even to some degree.
I haven't watched it all yet, but the second fight (starting at 21:50) was pretty awesome. In my opinion, the best fight yet for any Karate Combat event.
OMG the fight at 54 minutes in is FANTASTIC. Check it out. Karate Combat is really coming into its own, with a really different feel than other rule sets.
