With Olympus, Karate Combat finds its legs

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Mitlov, Jul 30, 2018.

  1. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    I think originally hooks weren’t allowed but now they are. Uppercuts on the other hand are still illegal iirc.
  2. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Thais don't need good boxing because of the way traditional Thai is scored

    And honestly what they are doing is saying we can't compete with the other combat sports because they are better so let's create our own rule set and keep to ourselves rather than evolve and grow that to me is sad
  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    We've seen them compete in other combat sports. That's like saying boxers can't take leg kicks so they do boxing.

    Personally, as long as a sport is practiced and competed under full contact rules with few limitations, I'll endorse it.
    Mitch, Travess and Mitlov like this.
  4. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Lol what?

    Boxers have boxing competitions. Some also compete in MMA. Many do not.

    Wrestlers have wrestling competitions. Some also compete in MMA. Many do not.

    Judoka have judo competitions. Some also compete in MMA. Many do not.

    Savateurs have savate competitions. Some also compete in MMA. Many do not.

    Sensing a theme?
  5. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Karate created a full contact event in the 60s called kick boxing

    It created one in the 90s called k1

    Now they seem to be creating another one and limiting the rule set because both the above ended up looking like boxing with no tradional hand strikes
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't get the problem.

    Rule sets are made in order to bring out the kind of action desired in an event. It's a marketing decision as much as anything else. These people are marketing a sport that they want to look like Karate, so they institute rules that encourage fighting that looks like Karate.

    No-one complains about Olympic fencing not allowing spears, or how Olympic Judo is contrived to get as many throws as possible... Even MMA has developed rules contrived to limit grappling grinds that would send most of the audience to sleep.
  7. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    My comments are not directed at what karate combat fights should look like, just what they will ultimately look like under the current rule set.

    The ‘look of shotokan karate’ that Mitlov enjoys isn’t really shotokan but shotokan and every other style of karate as adapted to the point format. Hence why okinawan and Japanese styles, which in many ways are quite different, all look exactly the same in competition.

    When you see guys in the ufc employing that strategy they are keeping their distance, entering for an attack, then getting right back out. This can make for a boring fight when both fighters use it a la the recent Thompson/ Till fight. On a side note I actually found that fight entertaining but concede many others did not.

    In karate combat the red really seems to press the action. Which makes sense as it is entertainment. But since you don’t stop after a clean shot you end up with a lot more in the pocket exchanges...

    Which right now look like sloppy boxing.

    Once they start cleaning up those in the pocket exchanges to look like better boxing, it will most likely evolve into kickboxing.
    David Harrison likes this.
  8. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Actually what I think of as the pinnacle of Shotokan kumite is not WKF circa 2018, but instead JKA kumite circa 1980. I saw that spirit again in Sahinteken v. Barbosa posted in page 1.

    That ref pressure was excessive. The ref needs to chill. It's also new to this particular event, and hopefully they'll tone it down for the next one. As Pretty in Pink said, this event is zero years old and still evolving rapidly.
    axelb likes this.
  9. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    1) funny you should reference a Mikio Yahara fight. I'm a big fan of his.

    2) one thing about modern WKF, they've got some really slick takedowns. It's one of the things that- in my opinion- has the potential to be one of the standout characteristics of Karate Combat thanks to the five second ground and pound rule.
    axelb and Mitlov like this.
  10. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Not to derail the thread, but the "styles" in Muay Thai are lineal much more than they're personal; particular gyms and coaches are famed for producing clinch-fighters or punchers.

    The same is very much true in boxing, or in wrestling, where there are very strongly differentiated national or regional styles that differ in the first-day fundamentals, despite the supposed levelling effect of a common rule-set.
  11. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    Same is very true for Judo. The Koreans practically have their own style. I was just watching someone demonstrate a very slick tai otoshi variation the other day.

    Anyway, yeah. I think the more restrictive the rule set the less stylistic variation we see regardless of the sport. And point karate is highly restrictive hence the stylistic similarity.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I see your point now, yeah.

    "Bad boxing" is quite generous though... the lean back and flail approach when in the pocket looks more schoolyard.

    The JKA kumite Mitlov posted at least had them eating punches with some grit and keeping their form, even if they also had no apparent interest in protecting their head when in punching range.
    BohemianRapsody likes this.
  13. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I may have spent too much time with JT but I'd have said that full contact Shotokan should look like the last couple of minutes of Couture vs Belfort 1?
  14. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    That fight, except for the first couple minutes is all from the clinch or on the ground. The list could minutes were just Couture punching Belfort from the clinch and then straddling him and hammer - fisting him until the fight ended. There are other Belfort fights where you can see his Shotokan...maybe you were thinking of another fight?
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Doesn't Thai have some rather odd scoring practices? Like not scoring much in the first round? Not my forte at all but I seem to remember something along those lines?
  16. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Doesn't Thai have some rather odd scoring practices? Like not scoring much in the first round? Not my forte at all but I seem to remember something along those lines?
  17. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    There are no odd practices in Muay Thai. It's a better choice than other striking arts in every way for every person with every objective from their martial arts training, and every thread in every MAP subforum for other striking arts should eventually include a debate about this indisputable truth.

    (/sarcasm, obviously)
    Mitch likes this.
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Nope,that's exactly what I meant.
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    using Vitor Belfort as your example to argue that Shotokan would never work in full contact competition is a really puzzling choice, considering that even though he lost that one particular fight, his overall MMA record is 26 - 14 and he was, at one point, light heavyweight champion of the UFC.
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I'm not and that's in no way the point I'm making???
    I'm saying that full contact Shotokan should look like Couture.
  21. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    See, how I got confused is that Belfort actually does do Shotokan, and Couture has never done it and his striking style doesn't resemble it at all.

    Also, Couture is a grappler first and foremost (he coached wrestling at Oregon State University) and that shows through in his style, which is basically NCAA wrestling with some basic punching added in.

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