Wing Chun & Tournaments

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by splodge, Nov 14, 2005.

  1. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    Hehe. Perhaps you missed his signature? ;)

    I think his real point is that it's one thing to practice "controlled". I was quite good at my WC drills, but once we started sparring and people started throwing things at me my technique would almost go out the window and I'd end up flinching (that is turning my head away from the fight and practically admitting defeat).

    I'm a bit better now. I've develloped a basic guard which'll give me a basic defense against most types of attacks. I've learned the importance of stancework and I know which defenses I can pull off practically and which ones I can't.
     
  2. WingChun Lawyer

    WingChun Lawyer Modesty forbids more.

    I did feel like pointing my signature to Mr. Gizzy, but god forbid I break the TOS.

    Incidentally, yes, I also had to overcome the flinch instinct when I started sparring, and I also had to learn what it takes to REALLY defend against a fully commited strike. Light sparring just won´t do that.
     
  3. Strafio

    Strafio Trying again...

    I'm still on "light" sparring. They won't let me (even if I wanted to) do "full contact" because I'd likely get injured. Although you can still get hurt in "light" sparring it's a rare-ish accident, and if the "hits" they landed on me in "light" were landed in "full contact" then I'd be very hurt indeed. :)
     
  4. WingChun Lawyer

    WingChun Lawyer Modesty forbids more.

    IMHO, light sparring leads to more serious injuries than hard sparring, because you are not ready for an eventual strong blow...

    I took about three or four months to be introduced to the wonderful world of nosebleeds and black eyes, I also started with light sparring. Out of curiosity, how long have you been doing what, Strafio?
     
  5. Topher

    Topher allo!

    Exactly, the point i've been advocating. I totally see the need for all types of sparring and have never disagreed with that. How i train in Wing Chun (which itself improves as i improve) suites for my needs on the street (from my experience). I do however see the need for more sprawling type sparring which is why i do eventually plan to branch out into other systems that have this focus.

    Regardless of the type of sparring, i dont see why a competition is worth it (other than for a bit of fun) when the same can be done in class. IMO Wing Chun just isn’t suited for competitions without major changes in techniques and delivery. If i did a style more suited for competition then i would probably do some.
     
  6. Topher

    Topher allo!

    OK, what "deadly" techniques does your training employ, and how much focus you have on them.

    Well we routinely train against real street techniques such as hard hooks, straights, uppercuts, grabs, pulls etc. Our main weapons are palm strikes, punches, elbows, knees, low kicks, chops etc. When training, especially as you improve you use full power (except when aiming the throat/head without padding). At first you go easy to understand the technique etc, then speed and strength comes naturally. This is important because i've seen beginners try to do things fast and hard when they start and it's just a mess and no coordination. I've been hit in the jaw and face quite a few times because my block didn't quite work, so i keep training it until it was second nature. Here no doubt out training isn’t hard.

    We are always showed different ways to do things and encouraged to adapt that we do according to our size/height etc. In many styles, there is a strict way as to what should be done. In WC because its principle based we learn principles and apply them according to our needs. It’s very flexible.

    Unlike other arts we don’t train our self defence in a ridged stance etc or use unorthodox striking methods which a lot of styles do. We don’t have "imaginary fight" formations etc. Everything we do has a place in self defence. Add to the fact we train for many situations, in a headlock, tackles, against a wall, multiple attackers etc.

    Well we do include takedowns, quite a lot of them. Later we do grappling (i believe in advance classes and through separate seminars)

    Anyway the point i was making was most street situations occur at close quarters/ touching range which is the primary range in Wing Chun. As for long range, we do cover bridging - what happens before contact is made.

    In my eyes if someone is in a long distance range then i consider myself relative safe. Only when they close the gap is when i start to really act, which is the range i focus on.

    You judging my whole training based on one technique? Maybe you know my training better than me :rolleyes:

    Threes no saying we don’t train hard but when it comes to dangerous techniques such as elbow/knee breaks or throat strikes you have to alter the power employed. I’ve hit people in the throat somewhat softly and stopped those dead on. Many people here have also been hit accidentally in the throat. There is no doubt they work so would adding full contact to it change that, other than up the risk.

    Same with knee kicks, we train them hard, but when hitting the front of the knee you can’t use the same power as you would say the thigh or back/side of the knee. Control is even more important here. The manner in which we train them shows they can be used in defence. When training, low power is focusing on control/technique, medium power can drop them to the floor, full power would break the leg. With that, do you think you should do dangerous techniques will full power?

    As for competitions, even attempting a stamp kick or throat strike will result in disqualification.
     
  7. splodge

    splodge New Member

    You don't need to practice a throat strike by striking your sparring partner full force in the throat to learn the technique. You can learn by doing it POC then by striking the pad then by striking his catching hand by the throat.

    The point is we are developing the technqiues and in a fight you are delivering them which would not be allowed in competition fighting. The parachute regiment doesnt practice killing terrorists by shooting their colleagues, they make it as close as possible whilst remaining as safe as possible.

    You cannot put wing chun in a competition with the standard restrictions and still perform wing chun, the two dont mix no matter how much wingchunlawyer and eternal rage disagree just like you cannot put a bjj fighter in a boxing match and see bjj!
     
  8. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Well my discussion with Homer's coming to a close I guess. He says his WC training is specifically geared for self defense. From all the Wing Chun I've seen, I don't see how it is any differently oriented than any other martial art, in theory or practice. Homer's might be different, so until I can actually watch what his training's like I guess we've said our points on the practice of "deadly techniques."

    As for you splodge, I don't see how a striking art can't be modified in some way to do well in a rule set environment. Considering that your sparring that you do in class is bound to have rules to protect either yourself or your partner, I guess then by your rationale, wing chun can't be done in normal sparring either since there are "standard restrictions" in sparring too.

    And this here is a rather ridiculous point:
    Boxing and BJJ train two different ranges. One is ground, another is grappling. We're talking about WC, a standup striking art, in standup striking art tournaments.

    If you have this amount of control in sparring your partner - working your techniques without hitting him, then surely you could easily stop your technique in a tournament or perhaps choose different techniques over your "deadly techniques" as well. You might say "well choosing those different techniques is against the essence of wing chun, and will teach me to choose legal techniques over fight stoppers." Well doing those "deadly techniques" with control in sparring doesn't teach you how to do them for real - least with the legal ones you can go nuts with and truly feel what it's like to strike someone - but then you get back to my discussions with Homer, which if you want just scan the last several pages...
     
  9. Topher

    Topher allo!

    No one is saying that you technically can’t adapt Wing Chun for competitions, but in doing so you will be removing a large part of what Wing Chun is. Hence Wing Chun would more likely loose. Secondly most people who do Wing Chun are not interested in competitions so there is no need. If they are interested they would also train in a style more suited for tournaments. Therefore there is no real need to train or adapt for other styles of fighting.

    I don’t think you will ever see a WC vs. WC competition so the only time you’ll see WC in competition is when an individual enters. If the competition is open to all styles then for Wing Chun to be represented well it would need its full arsenal of techniques - which it won’t have. You also have the problem that when we train it’s not points or time limits. It’s over when you can judge to safely leave the situation. This could be after 5 seconds. So for competition not only will you have to change your techniques but your whole delivery approach.

    Look at early UFC, before all the rules came into it some fights didn’t even go 1 minuet or 30 seconds or less, and that’s with two train fighters. Nowadays I rarely see quick fights in MMA competitions. If they can end the fight quickly, why don’t they?

    As for “standard restrictions” in sparring. I agree there are, according to the style. Our standard restrictions are different to other styles; hence our standard sparring is also different. This is my point; our standard sparring isn’t suitable for tournaments. Add to the fact that our sparring is aimed for self defence and therefore trained and varied appropriately.

    Well then put a Muay That guy in a Boxing match, boxing rules and you wont see MT. As good as your punches might be, that’s all you would have. No kicks, elbows, knees….
     
  10. Bjoern_VT

    Bjoern_VT Valued Member

    is it allowed in UFC to hit against the back of the head/neck when the grappler comes forward and ducks down to grapple? if so, why does nobody try, and all the stand up fighters rather throw straight or round house punches into clean air?

    my personal opinion about Ving Tsun at UFC is, if you cannot fight in a ring, something would be wrong with your style... Ving Tsun did farely well, in teh HK full contact Kung Fu tournaments... (won't know about nowadays though)
    but if you wnat to go to the ring, you have to train accordingly.... that means intensive power and cardio workout, time inteinsive sparring and so on... then do sparring against the guys you will fight in the ring until you figured HOW to survive , then beat them easy in't it????

    ;)

    but if you take away the few chances of preventing grappling by ruling them out, there is no way that a stand up fighter could survive in such a ring, excepot with lucky punches....
    I met severeal wrestlers in free sparring, and none managed to put me down when I stil was young and fit and in training fo sprring.. nowadays a sleeping judoka will take me down ;)... but if you punch hard and from correct distance you CAN prevent yourself from being tackled..... but if you may not hit them on te exposed parts fo their body once they go down.. what can you do??
     
  11. Hoimun

    Hoimun Banned Banned

    Reguardless of that, it is in refferrence to general topics about Wing Chun. Yes there are rules in an tournament or compettition... otherwise it is considered a street fight. I do not know what you know, though I do know there is a difference between a competition with refree & judges etc., & a street fight. On top of that, there are also competitions with refrees outside of TV shows you can watch on Paperview or whatever shows on TV, cable, or satellite. If you are speaking of a smaller martial arts tournament or competition in your community... yet I was under the preminition you were reffering to N.H.B. which specifically means any compettition where a hold is not barred.


    That is once again irrellevant point because, whether he was talking about practice, or real fighting, or competetive sport. A wing Chun fighter will do Wing Chun kuen. That is what it is.

    UFC, is the only place where you will see MMA doing (supposedly NHB) competetive tournament fighting on TV. That statement is based on what I was told about TV MMA fighting.

    My point is, not taking from Sifu Robert Anthony's article about Wing Chun & how we fight & train etc., WHY CANT WE COMPETE?!?! Is it because we are not mixed martial artists?? Or is it because we do not want to compete on a TV show, or in someplace where the media is designating?
     
  12. splodge

    splodge New Member

    Finally you have grasped the point!!!! You can see modified wing chun in a competition but you cannot see wing chun.

    Sparring is not fighting, I think that has been established by now.

    It is not the ranges that would make the difference it is the techniques allowed and the core restrictions that it would place on the style developed by the bjj fighter in a boxing match.


    I can control my strikes and could stop my technique prior to landing in a tournament, but it is the technique that is not allowed so I wouldn't need to stop before hitting as I would not be able to execute the technique initially.

    If we choose a different technique than the one we would use then you are not seeing wing chun at best you are seeing MMA but definetly not wing chun. Of course practicing techniques learns you how to do them for real, that is how training works, you think that everytime a grappler goes to training he breaks a bone on his partner for each technique he practices??? Even a boxer practices on pads, are you saying that he is wasting his time and should instead be fighting all the time? We all need to practice this "fake" way in order to develop our techniques.

    As I have pointed out before, I have also boxed for over 12 years and have used both what I have learned in the boxing gym as well as what I have learned (yes, learned for real too!) being a student of Wing Chun in street fights and you know what, they both work! I agree that hard sparring prepares you better for that fight or flight moment on the street when your throat drops in your stomach for a split second but that is not what this thread is about.
     
  13. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Just wanted to point out tonite's (11/21) UFC Unleashed on Spike TV. James Irvin KOed a guy who was shooting in for the takedown with a flying knee. 9 seconds. Fact of the matter is a grappler never usually "comes forward and ducks down to grapple" without throwing a fake or some striking first. Not many grapplers just tuck their head down and charge in (least not anymore with all the cross training). They set up their takedowns just like strikers set up their combos.

    But regardless, yeah there are times where someone gets rocked when they come in, as we all saw tonight. Flying Knee FTW.
     

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