Wing Chun Roundhouse Defense

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Sketco, Nov 4, 2011.

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  1. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I know a lot of you may be used to seeing this as Wing Chun's defense for kicks:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RInVosm3YN4"]Wing Chun Garn sao block against high round kick - YouTube[/ame]

    But this is very wrong. Proper Wing Chun uses hands to defend hands and legs to defend legs. Block with your arms, especially like this, and they may get broken (ex Frank Shamrock vs Cung Lee).

    I was actually happy to find one of the proper Wing Chun defense on YouTube. Usually you won't find good Wing Chun on YouTube and from the video of this guy's lap sao many of the other things he does are probably badly doen. This is why my sifu calls bad Wing Chun "YouTube" Wing Chun :rolleyes: But at least the kick defense is fairly well shown even if the student's roundhouse is not the best.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFrh0mFtb1o"]Defend against a round house kick - YouTube[/ame]

    Points:
    - move head out of the way (hands should be up and covering just in case)
    - hit to the knee in real application (maximum damage)
    - strike with the heel (no give, most force transferred to knee joint)
    - short, fast, knock them down, crippled if possible
     
  2. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Front kicks to the supporting leg are a good counter, but it's not quite as easy as this guy is making it out to be. The reason why it looks easy for him is because it's a demo and his students don't have the first clue about what they're doing. In reality, you need to be able to read your opponent well, great timing, and speed. If your opponent is setting up his kick with punches, is faster than you, and/or is disguising his intent (e.g. feints, deceptive movement) its effectiveness is greatly reduced. In that case, you'll need something more than just this. The downside too is if you try it and fail, now you're getting clocked when you're balanced on one foot.
     
  3. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    As with any counter...

    As with any counter...

    I said this was ONE wing chun roundhouse counter, not THE ONLY wing chun roundhouse counter.

    As long as you have a leg forward in wing chun all of your weight should be on one leg anyway to keep your front leg free to kick and negate kicks quickly. Also your hands should be up and covering as you move your head away so that if you do fail you're harder to hit and you have your hands as a backup.
     
  4. Kid Moe

    Kid Moe Peace that don't belong

    There are probably many techniques for defending against kicks to the body. My personal best, just because of it's simplicity, is keeping your elbows close to your body and absorbing most of the power from the kick... Also, lifting you knee will make your opponent think twice before throwing another round house or a low kick...

    I do agree with Sketco that for most self defense techniques you need to be able to read your opponent well and to have great timing and speed. So the one he showed can work as much as garbing the leg for instance... But for me the point is to keep it as simple as possible... :hat:
     
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    The average WC student is not going to be able to use this effectively, simply because to use this technique effectively requires a lot of time sparring to get it right. There are many other methods that require less training to be effective, which is probably what a WC student should look at first. All things considered, this is pretty standard among a lot of striking sports and even in those it's rare to see these pulled off successfully.
     
  6. Kid Moe

    Kid Moe Peace that don't belong

    Strength lies in simplicity.... :meditate:
     
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    We use this in JKD and Muay Thai independently. It's not a difficult technique, but the timing and telegraphing is a bitch! I haven't pulled it off in sparring yet :(
     
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Another video post with lots to talk about :)
    The only actual problem with the first defence is the footwork. He's moving into the power of the kick. If he stepped into his opponent it would be a perfectly legitimate kick defence.
    The second one is actually more problematic. This requires a lot of attributes to pull off, and even then is somewhat low percentage. I've learned this defence from Kung Fu, Muay Thai, Savate and Panantukan, and I can assure you that against a body kick, you NEED a hand defence as well. If you put the guys in shinpads, and had them do this at speed with realistic pressure, the defender would still get kicked more than half the time. Combined with a hand defence such as in the first video, and the defender would rarely get kicked.
    In both cases it's a case of square peg, round hole. They simply do not understand the kick, and as such do not understand how to defend against it, and of course they then go on to train it in a dead fashion, never realising that it doesn't work. This is why so many of us go on about cross training, ESPECIALLY if you do a high concept style. Yes, WC DOES have solutions to the problem posed, but without properly understanding the question, it's hard to find the right answer.
    Why on earth would you bind yourself to such a rigid and flawed dogma? First off Shamrock broke his arm because he was exhausted and so didn't control the range and threw up a sloppy defence. As I've already discussed, to defend against body kicks you need both. Indeed the sport fighting experience suggests that the most efficient defence against a roundhouse kick is to step inside and punch them in the face.
    It comes down to percentages. The first defence (with proper footwork) MIGHT get your arm broken 1 time in 500. The second defence (without hands) WILL lead to you eating a full force body shot 2 times out of 3.
     
  9. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    Is my Wing Chun class that unusual? We spent the last week working on defenses against kicks, including stop kicks, tarn garn sao, and the one shown in the bottom video.

    Methods that require less training are where ANYONE should look first, not just Wing Chun students.
     
  10. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    My instructor says this all the time!


    Other than that man, it sounds like you were getting on at Sketco, but this is the internet and I might have read it wrong ^^


    Oh, and the break is called "the nightstick fracture". Self explanatory really :p
     
  11. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    Proper Wing Chun uses whatever is at the appropriate place. If some Tae Kwon Do guy is throwing a high roundhouse kick at the side of your head you're not going to throw your leg up there to block it. You can kick the supporting leg out like the video shows, but if the attack is up at your head, then you use your arms to defend. If it's down at your knees, then you use your legs. There's a nice overlap area there where you can pick what works best for you.
     
  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I'm challenging his position, isn't that what debate is all about? Sketco's a reasonable guy and I have no beef with him.
     
  13. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    When I'm training a martial art I put in a lot of time and effort. I'm at Wing Chun 10-12 hours a week plus practice at home every morning. If the 'average student' doesn't put in the time then that's an issue with the dedication to training, not with the technique.

    If we were training for the army or police who have very limited time to learn I would agree with that approach however if a technique is direct, effective, and most fun of all potentially crippling to my enemy, then I'm certainly willing to put in the time to do it well. And for both of the above you could say the same about something like the spinning heel kick yet you can find examples of knockouts with it.
    If I wanted the shortest road I would take it. But I'm willing to put in the time to learn the system. Kung Fu means learned skill and skill requires practice and dedication.

    200 lb person kicks 100 lb person hard. Blocking will not work well if at all. It will likely get you hurt. That is why proper wing chun doesn't teach that and the hands are only there as a backup. It takes into account that you will usually be fighting a larger opponent.

    As you said it requires dedicated training to make this type of counter work from the range it's being applied at (the closer range kicks to the leg are easier in a way) and likely they're going to train different counters. I have a feeling if you let them fight people who massively outweighed them you'd see more counters like this (or evasions) from the smaller gents though.
    And like I said THIS IS NOT THE ONLY COUNTER FOR A ROUNDHOUSE IN WING CHUN but it is an effective one when trained properly, consistently.

    I always found it fairly easy to pull off. The only front kick counter I've ever had real trouble with is kicking the leg as they're brining the leg up to kick. I can hit the in the groin fine it's getting the timing before the leg comes up. That gets me there.

    I also find it helps to defocus your eyes a little so you can observe your opponent's whole body without getting trapped into watching a specific part of their body. That's what helped me see the kick faster so I could get the kick in soon enough.
     
  14. Kid Moe

    Kid Moe Peace that don't belong

    And that is the point of the discussion... ;)

    I found something I have and will use most of the times as a defense against round house kicks (as stated above)... As I already wrote, simple and effective...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2macp2m69Vs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2macp2m69Vs[/ame]
     
  15. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    A reasonable chunner? Naw. We're all bung holes ;)
    Like I said... YouTube wingchun is not good wing chun.

    That's why you keep the hands an a position where you can block and try to use the kick to the leg to take out most if not all of their power.

    This is an issue with the school not the technique itself...

    It's not a hard and fast rule. And it's actually somewhat more complicated than that. Legs deal with legs and arms deal with arms but it also goes that legs deal with the lower section (below the belt) and hands deal with the area above the belt. But the general idea is that you do not want to block kicks because of the power of the kick.

    Not using it as an example of how a kick can break an arm, just THAT a kick can break an arm. Heck a kick can break a shin.

    We do that too. Like I said... this is not the only option available, just one option available.

    Which is the primary goal.

    It's not without in this case just that here hands are not the primary defense. They are a backup.
     
  16. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    The reason why the average WC student won't be able to pull it off is because the average WC student isn't training the same way the other students who do train to use that technique effectively do.

    Compare the knockouts achieved via a spinning hook kick via those achieved from a rear straight and you'll see that one is what is considered a "high percentage technique", meaning it gives you the most bang for your buck. They're also those techniques that if you are concerned with self protection those should be your priority.

    If I were a WC practitioner, I would focus on footwork being my first defense against a roundhouse kick. You can't kick me if I'm there, and if I use the angles to my advantage I'd be able to counter with my punches while you're off balance. Failing that, checking the low kick would be more preferential as then all you have to do is place your foot down rather than retract it as your opponent does, giving you a better chance of countering with punches while they're off balance. For a middle kick, failing movement catching the kick would be a far better option than the one you're arguing for. Once you catch it you can either hold onto it and then attack their supporting leg to take them down, or throw it aside and attack them with punches before their foot hits the ground (again, off balance). Failing movement for high kicks, if you can't immediately close with them go with the reliable head cover and then counter with punches.

    Rather than try the fancy stuff, try what works. That'll be more impressive WC.

    So does virtually every other art in existence. Blocking isn't meeting full force on full force, rather it's either stopping the technique before it reaches full power or deflecting it. The term "block" is misleading in these cases.
     
  17. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    90 lb woman, 160+ lb man. Do you really think she could do that? When your opponent massively outweighs you full on blocks are not as practical.
     
  18. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    You're completely ignoring the fact that this is neither the primary defense nor the only defense.
     
  19. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    This goes back to the other video thread about what you can do in the time available. By the time you've realised that the kick isn't going to save you it's going to be WAY too late to throw up a meaningful hand defence, and a kick hitting your guard is far more likely to break your arm than the first defence.
     
  20. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well it depends on who you spar with, if you practice with just WC guys, then their roundhouses probably aren't as practiced. Also depends on what you define as sparring ^^

    Yeah, I've started kind of watching the whole body, it seems t be working ^^
     
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