Wing Chun punches VS Boxing jab and cross?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Hazmatac, Sep 30, 2014.

  1. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    What are their relative strengths and weaknesses?

    I, in truth, have not yet understood any sort of codified way WCers punch except that they do so vertically, and oftentimes one after the next (chain punch). That's pretty much where I am at with understanding how they punch, but I want to know the FULL how, as well as the WHY (why do they determine this is the best way to go?)

    So if you could explain what differentiates the punch as well as the relative strengths and weaknesses of them, that would be helpful (and the proper execution and idea behind wing chun punches). Thanks.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  2. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Boxing body mechanics allow (demand) you to put your full body behind the punch - foot, leg, hip, torso, shoulder, arm, and fist. Wing Chun, from what I saw, is more or less simple arm punching, creating a deficit in speed and power.

    Then there's the whole training against resistance thing...
  3. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Not the jab, though. The jab is an 'arm punch', right? :confused:

    I've seen a Chunner punching with real explosive power, moving his whole body forward into the punch. Of course, he might have been one Chunner in a million, for all I know! :D
  4. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    The vertical punch is found in a lot of southern Chinese arts the idea is that the elbow is down and in, protecting the centre of the body (most southern arts are big on attacking and defending the centre line, eyes throat solar plexus etc) your shoulder is sunk and you lock the lats in place and the power is generated by the back shoulder elbow all working together, you also generate power by turning the hips slightly but mainly by stepping or sliding in with the punch and dropping your weight into it, so your whole body is behind the punch, great in theory but has a few obvious issues
    1) Against an art which doesn’t give as much significance to the centre line but uses circular strikes your chin is up your elbow and shoulder are down which opens you up to hooks and overhands
    2) It’s a short range punch, especially since you don’t really rotate the body, which means you have to be close to your opponent, again great against another art which is centreline driven and covers that line, not so great against an at which either has clinching and throws or which likes to move and throw short hooks and uppercuts
    3) It can feel like a powerful strike but it tends to be almost a push and when thrown from a static position without any forward momentum or hip rotation it’s a quick punch but very weak. I have heard someone on another forum argue wing chun makes much more sense when you are holding two daggers, the short quick strikes and protecting the centerline becomes more practical when you are armed...

    Most other southern arts use the vertical punch as a small part of their art its not the cornerstone of the art, its used at specific times, personally I find it useful in clinch range working off an underhook, as I am coming into clinch or breaking out,

    Western boxing punches put their whole body in the strike too, but in a more practical way, the back foot comes up, the power rotates through the hips and out the arm, the shoulder tends to be up to protect the chin
  5. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    Ishin Ryu karate also punch vertically, from what I have read they believe it is a faster way to punch.
  6. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    There are in fact loads of different ways to generate power for striking. There are many different ways of hitting with the whole body.

    The basic Boxing mechanic is simple, practical, very powerful, and highly effective.

    There are however more complicated ways of achieving a similar power that do not require so much forward drive from the legs. This can be very useful if someone is shutting your leg movement down (with low kicks for example) or if you are fighting in grappling range where leg movement can be restricted.

    There is also the question of how much power do you need. Yes it would be a huge advantage to hit with knock out power with every punch. A lower power strike can, however, be used to open up a vulnerable target for a subsequent hit. This is one of the key themes in Win Chung fighting practice.
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2014
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    If it's difficult why learn it? Much easier to learn simple cinching IMO :)
  8. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Because it comes in handy when you have learnt it!

    The various mechanics of short power are harder to learn but once you have learnt them are no harder to apply than Boxing mechanics. So short provides a useful tool in situations where you might otherwise be shut down.
  9. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Or you just headbutt them.
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Johnno, Johnno, Johnno.....get to the back of the class and give me 20 press-ups.
  11. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Why? :confused:

    You don't put your whole body into a jab, it's basically thrown with the arm, augmented by a slight turning of the waist. If you are stepping forward behind a jab then obviously that adds extra 'oomph', but the punching technique isn't fundamentally different if you are throwing jabs while stepping backwards.

    Compare the jab with a cross. It's a totally different punch altogether.
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Well for one...there are different jabs so this doesn't apply to all.
    But they do generally have much more than the arm involved.
    Push off the back foot, little step with the front foot, load up the waist, created torque across torso, lag the shoulder back a bit and then release it and then finally the arm gets involved after all that.
    The jab can be thrown with just the arm (stinging or flicker jab) but it can also be thrown with much more welly behind it (Dempsey's falling step for example).
    As a tai chi guy I'd expect you to be aware of how the whole body can be involved in what might appear to be quite a simple or isolated movement if the various bits are linked and synchronised.

    Now...those press-ups aren't going to do themselves. :)
  13. itf-taekwondo

    itf-taekwondo Banned Banned

    Bruce Lee favoured western boxing punches over anything else. That should tell you something given that wing chun was his original style.

    We all know which kicks he prefered too:cool:
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Oh dear.

    Look at the picture below. Is that a boxing jab?

    Attached Files:

  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Says the man who would kick them in the face :p
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Is that a serious question?

    You think if it takes a while to learn something, you shouldn't bother with it at all?

    If that's the case, why not just pick up a 2x4 with a nail in it and call it a day?
  17. itf-taekwondo

    itf-taekwondo Banned Banned

  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    This is good in theory, but the trouble is I've not seen a WC person (except Orr's lot) using any other kind of punch. So they set up an arm punch with an arm punch... which I guess leads to chain punching.
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    But does it not tell you something that his jab/straight (about the only punch in WC, AFAIK) were still done in a Chinese style?

    He took other types of punching from boxing, but it doesn't look like it changed his jab/straight much. Also, he hardly had an orthodox approach to boxing footwork either.
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    That looks like a boxing jab to me.
    Given that there isn't just one jab in boxing all sorts of punches get thrown off the front hand and that is sure to look like one of them.

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