Why the silly movements in higher patterns?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by KidCanFight, Dec 14, 2006.

  1. KidCanFight

    KidCanFight good is not good enough

    This week, I got my blue belt and I have started learning the pattern.

    There is one thing I have noticed in this pattern and other higher rank patterns I have seen other people do, is that there a lot of techniques that are quite impractical and would not be used in a real self defense situation.

    In the 7th kup pattern for example, most of the techniques are logical. Block to the side then punch. Imagine someone is attacking from the other side, block and punch. The the guarding and the thrust, followed by 2 backfists. The wedging blocks and front kicks would be good too.

    In the 4th kup pattern, there are lots of pointless movements. Nobody would do the technique at the start (I can only really describe it as a low reverse knifehand) if someone was attacking them, nor would they use a double high punch, or various other techniques.


    Does anyone know why all these techniques that nobody would really use are in the patterns?
     
  2. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    For most of the pattern techniques, if you don't think it is possible to use it in fighting, you may just not be proficient in the technique.

    Is your fourth gup pattern Choon-gun? If so, the first movement is a side block with reverse knife hand. It doesn't strike me as rediculous to think that you could block with that and counter with the low side front snap kick. Alternatively, you could parry with the right hand as you cross for the "block," strike to the neck with the reverse knife hand, pop them in the groin or knee with the front kick, and strike to the groin if they're upright or to the face if they fold with the upward block that follows.

    There are some techniques that aren't obviously useful immediatly to me, but I tend to attribute that to my lack of understanding, rather than the move being "useless."
     
  3. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    I have never understood patterns.
     
  4. One thing you have to remember is that Tae Kwon Do is a traditional martial art. We do not carry out the patterns simply as a way of practising self defense or competition fighting. There are other more effective ways of doing this.

    The patterns we do teach us a catalogue of movements, which can be remembered and passed from one generation to the next. Look at them as a text book from which you can draw knowledge and apply it.

    Patterns also teach us timing and breath control and the core principles of power generation. They also help improve stance work and technique (e.g. start-stop position).

    When you first learn a pattern, some of the movements do look a bit confusing in terms of their application, but there is a purpose and application. I remember as a beginner observing higher grades performing the last two movements of your newest pattern (Joon Gun) wondering what on Earth people were doing. Now I know it is there to block a stick attack - it makes perfect sense.

    The block at the start of Joon Gun is a reverse knife hand outward block - and could be used to block a side kick. Do you think that this or even the twin vertical punch would be any less effective than the straight finger tip thrust in Do San?

    If you are unsure of the application then ask your instructor. It really helps when you come to perform your pattern if you know what each movement is for.
     
  5. gemtkd

    gemtkd Valued Member

    The "silliest" move I've come across is in Toi-Gye. It's the W shaped block, and it's not "silly" just not what I would perceve as practical on the street!!
     
  6. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    A few thoughts from an ex-TKDer

    I used to wonder about this too. As you go further up the ranks, the patterns become more and more complex, with more intricate movements that just don't make sense! :bang:
    That's what I thought at the time :)

    I now practice Tai Chi full time, and the form I practice from the outside looks like a highly impractical mess of arm waving (again, what I thought at first). But then I was taught, the movements we do are only indications of possible applications. I then looked at the movements from the form and I could start to see lots of different apps for each. Then I looked back at my Karate and TKD patterns. All of a sudden, all of the movements were clear in front of me, even the basic movements that I thought were clear before.

    Moral of the story:
    Don't treat the patterns as if they are a concrete guide to "this is technique A, B & C". It's just a training tool for certain principlies that can be applied during a fight.

    Even the most inexplicable movement has an application! If you don't believe me, take a couple of Tai Chi classes. :)

    Hope this helps :)

    EDIT:
    I should also note, the movements on the outside of the Taiji form are not as important as the movement of vital energy (Qi) on the inside. Indeed, with the movement of energy, Taiji would not generate its Jins, and thus would have no power.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2006
  7. KidCanFight

    KidCanFight good is not good enough

    I suppose you are right. That technique could be used, however I believe there would be much better alternatives.

    To be honest I believe the straight finger tip thrust would be better. The would probably work in some situations, as would the twin vertical punch, but wouldn't it just be better to use a straight punch or fire out a sidekick or something.

    I guess I have alot to learn :eek:
     
  8. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    If you take everything as 'a punch is a punch' and 'block is a block' then many do seem impractical, especially as their are better tools that do the same thing. However, despite the way techniques are often put across in that guise, that is not the case. For example - the moves in Joong-Gun you refer to make a excellent wrist grab reverse and end with the attacker getting a broken arm!

    I would recommend a useful learning tool.. but I better not :rolleyes:

    Stuart
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    "Now I know it is there to block a stick attack - it makes perfect sense."

    Sorry to put the fly in the ointment but using that block to block a stick attack makes no sense at all let alone "perfect sense".
    Unless people are in the habit of thrusting sticks at you with the stick sticking right up in the air? Which they probably aren't?

    Personally I'd see a better use of the last two blocks as "stick manipulation" or my own favourite a side headlock escape and takedown (I can explain that if you want).
     
  10. KidCanFight

    KidCanFight good is not good enough


    Please do!
     
  11. rtkd-badger

    rtkd-badger Fundimentaly Manipulated

    Read between the lines ;)
    ____________________


    [​IMG]


    ____________________
    :D
     
  12. KidCanFight

    KidCanFight good is not good enough

    Oh, is it good?
     
  13. martinnharvey

    martinnharvey Valued Member

  14. You don't deserve to know.
     
  15. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Now, now... remember your tenets! I'm sure there's one about not trolling teh n00bz! It's right after the one about not eating the flesh of your neighbour's wife or something.
     
  16. James Funaro

    James Funaro Formerly "joe nobody"

    If the forms don't make sense why practice them? Why do they need to remain a mystery? I understand that maybe at one time they needed to hide things in forms, but is there a need for that anymore?

    You pay your instructor for a reason, to teach you, I would be pretty upset now if my teacher gave me a technique and left it up to me to figure it all out. I suppose I would only pay him fir the techniques I figured out!

    Also, if a technique seems impractical, maybe it is. Those who say to just give it time are probably only sometimes correct. Of course as time passes proficiency increases. But as time passes you may also be so set on looking for its application that you refuse the idea that there might not be a good one. You lose the critical eye.

    Don't assume that all techniques are good to begin with and then look for how to use them. It makes more sense to first look at techniques with a critical eye. It may be good or bad and you should be thinking about that primarily.
     
  17. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    IMO, those who say that patterns/forms aren't a useful tool for training Traditional martial arts simply don't have the patience to train them.

    As I stated in my previous post, I believe that the purpose of forms is to train ideas, more than techniques. To train power development, rather than applications (though the applications do exist). Such methods require a slow, patient training. Without that, then it is no wonder that some traditional artists feel that their art is ineffective.
     
  18. whatsthecraic

    whatsthecraic Valued Member

    Read this book and all of a sudden all those 'silly movements' make sense ... Trust me ... I bought this book about a week ago and haven't put it down

    Good work Stuart!
     
  19. TKDTraditional

    TKDTraditional Valued Member

    My instructor was excellent at finding a real application in techniques and yet keeping the beauty of the actual patterns, even if it meant tweeking the execution of the technique slightly.

    For example, in the stick block of Joong-Gun, the hands chamber near the opposite shoulder (let's say the right side) as the attacker begins to thrust his stick. The left arm swings down at the elbow, contacting the stick with the inverted "cup" of the hand and deflecting it downward. The elbow is braced against your ribs to add stability to your lower arm. As the stick continues in toward you, the deflected motion brings the back end of the stick up just in time for your right hand to intersect it, again in the cup of your hand. Later, as a 1st dan, you learn to grab the stick in Po-Eun.

    This makes more sense than anything else I've ever heard.

    This technique also makes you practice keeping a perfect stance even when doing a motion that seems awkward.
     
  20. KellyOwens

    KellyOwens Valued Member

    Is there a WTF equivalent to Stuart's book (okay, so equivalent may be the wrong word but I think you get what I'm asking :) )??

    Kelly
     

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