Why the Bujinkan sucks

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Please reality, Nov 17, 2010.

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  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    WHAT??????? I have been trying not to be confrontational or -itchy as some have opined but this is perhaps the dumbest thing I have read on this forum, and believe me there have been a lot of posts to compare this to.

    Hon gyaku, omote gyaku, take ori, or ura gyaku for that matter can all be performed with either hand to either of the opponents hands no matter if his hand is palm up, palm down, sideways, etc. If they could not, then you should throw them out as techniques as you would never get them to work 99.999% of the time. Whether his arm is bent or straight is irrelevant. Hon gyaku could be put on you from a handshake just as easily as a grab to the chest.

    Or did I miss what you meant? You trying to say saka dori or something I hope? Then I might retract what I wrote above.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  2. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    Must....resist....urge....to....press...."THANKS" button....on previous post....

    ....aaarrrgh.....:bang:....no use....


    - Mark Spada
     
  3. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Proper, correct, technically correct, authentic, ergonomic, etc. are all different words to say the same thing. The method of doing something that works for any properly trained individual regardless of their size, strength, and speed. The method that keeps you safe and your opponent unsafe. It isn't up to tradition or some soke to decide. It just is. The human body, gravity, and reality of 2 or more bodies in conflict make them so. If what the AUTHORITY of an art says is incorrect, improper, inauthentic, etc et al, you shouldn't blindly follow him to your doom, you should either have the balls to speak out, or the balls to leave if you truly believe him to be wrong. The political bs people can live with, false martial arts can get you killed and should be shunned along with those who spread them.
     
  4. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    This is from the guy who has been starring in everyone's favorite children's show "You Can't Learn That Outside Of Japan!" for how many seasons now?

    Worlds are colliding here....George is getting upset....

    Next thing you know Garth will show up and train at a Kacem Zoughari seminar....


    - Mark Spada
     
  5. jwills79

    jwills79 Valued Member

    First of all, it doesn't mean I'm wrong in saying that hon gyaku is from Takagi Yoshin Ryu and not found originally in Gyokko Ryu specifically Renyo.

    Second, hon gyaku is to force someone drop straight down like most techniques in Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Everything about hon gyaku supports the characteristics and strategies of Takagi Yoshin Ryu not Gyokko ryu and it's circular movements. That is why Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Koto and Gyokko ryu omote gyakus are done differently.

    Can hon gyaku be used in Renyo? Yes

    Was it used originally? No

    Can any gyaku be used to restrain, break bones or ligaments? Yes

    Third, just because hon gyaku was shown in the purple book doesn't make anything I said wrong. Like Will said, hon gyaku is a variation of ura gyaku. Of course they will be placed in the same book just like in the TenChiJin. The purple book was the first training manual for teachers to use.

    I also remember reading the "History and Traditions" by Hatsumi. I know after being in Japan that alot of that material comes from other schools and is not Togakure Ryu or any other Ninjutsu school.

    What's your point here?
     
  6. jwills79

    jwills79 Valued Member

    Dunc,

    I think rigidity risks reaching a glass ceiling they can't break through.

    I think the lazy/ego risks reaching a glass ceiling a lot lower and sooner than rigidity.
     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Besides the fact that you don't have a clue what you are talking about? Not much.
     
  8. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    Can you please provide specific citations to substantiate your knowledge and understanding of these ryu-ha you mentioned?


    - Mark Spada
     
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Takagi Yoshin ryu shoden zagata first technique kasumidori. Is that straight down? Karame dori, is that straight down? No circular motion? Kyoto, is that straight down? No circular motion? Katamunedori, is that straight down? And we're just getting started. Come on, this is getting old...

    THAT'S MY POINT!!
     
  10. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I'll take a stab since he doesn't get my point. Not the Quest videos, maybe a Quest Center perhaps?:rolleyes:
     
  11. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    Yes, you are right. And I'm sorry for being unclear. I'm currently mentally exhausted. Sorting through 10+ GB of dancehall singles tends to do stuff to your head.
     
  12. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReB8c3V4-wI"]YouTube - kc and the sunshine band - get down tonight.mpg[/ame]

    GET DOWN TONIGHT!
     
  13. jwills79

    jwills79 Valued Member

    Reality Please

    Firstly, don't write any checks your ass can't cash. Keep it respectful because if you don't want any trouble then don't make any trouble.

    Secondly, I said mostly. I know there are some circular movements in Takagi Yoshin ryu. Some of it looks like Aikido. I also know that it was meant for confined spaces. You are not doing a lot of circular motions in confined spaces.

    I can used the same handshake and turn it to an omote gyaku. I have also been taught how to send the opponent in all directions. We are not talking about variations or the infinite applications of hon gyaku. We are talking about how it is used in the kata which is straight down.

    By the way, people didn't shake hands in Japan back in the day. See what I'm saying?

    Thirdly, your name is Reality Please. You were the one defending annonymous identity when others were asking you to step out of the shadows. Now, you want me to put a Japanese Shihan on the spot? You believe you know more than him?

    Lastly, I gave several scenarios of why people use hon gyaku to augment their ura gyaku. Don't pick just one and pull it out of context. You should have quoted that. It could have jogged your memory.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  14. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    Right!

    Or this will happen:

    [ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hPxGmTGarM"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hPxGmTGarM[/ame]


    Actually, I'm fairly certain that the "correct" phrasing is "....that your ass can't cash.

    Just keepin' it on topic.

    - Mark Spada
     
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Actually I believe it's:

    " Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash"

    If we're going with the movie version :D
     
  16. jwills79

    jwills79 Valued Member

    Here is one example. If I find the info about Gyokko ryu then I will post it as well. Not a citation but proof of my point.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCWc-n7Ip4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCWc-n7Ip4[/ame]

    By the way, I know it is cash. I deleted a sentence that made the two merge.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  17. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned


    You're citing a promotional dvd?

    Ouch.

    Did you notice those occasions in the clip when Mr. Manaka moved in a circular as well as a linear fashion?

    Double ouch.


    - Mark Spada
     
  18. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReB8c3V4-wI"]YouTube - kc and the sunshine band - get down tonight.mpg[/ame]

    GET DOWN TONIGHT!
     
  19. jwills79

    jwills79 Valued Member

    Then you never read my post when I said mostly and that some are circular like Aikido. By the way, he is Adams Mitchell teacher the same person you was praising on another thread.

    Ouch back!

    First technique, Kasumi dori finishes with hon gyaku straight down pinning them.

    Mark, double ouch back!
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  20. markspada

    markspada Banned Banned

    I think someone needs to take Ace of Clubs outside so he can pee.

    I believe it's your turn, Big Will. :cool:


    - Mark Spada
     
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