Why the Bujinkan sucks

Okay, for the sake of argument it seems that many have this opinion. I wonder why? Any thoughts?

These are quotes from the "A question for the independents/neo-ninja" thread:

"In Japan, the poor movement, the idolitry, the poor etiquette and the ego turned me off."

"7-9 yrs in the Kan and associating with the Kan to me is enough time to garner an opinion, in my opinion."

"A few times at Ayase and a few classes with Hatsumi, a Nagato and 2 with Shiraishi. So yes limited but one can gain some opinion from that. That is what I have to go by, and what I hear and heard at domestic seminars. It's not like all the exposure I have to the Kan is one trip to Japan."


Okay, these are both quotes from the same person but this thread is not an attack on said person but an examination of a trend. Please try to keep things on topic and civil.

Now, the person quoted said that he had 7-9 years training and only one trip to Japan, where he was disgusted by what he saw and decided to leave the Bujinkan even though he claimed to like his teachers. Who were his teachers, I don't know but they clearly weren't Japanese. So what was he disgusted with, the movement of the Japanese Shihan or Hatsumi Sensei? Me knows not.

However, most of the neo guys and others questioning the veracity of the Bujinkan art for the most part haven't spent any mentionable time in Japan. Again, if one is claiming to study/teach whatever a Japanese art, how can you logically do so without having spent a lot of time in Japan learning the art(forget the need to understand the language and customs)? :dunno:

If the Bujinkan art does truly suck, is it not because of all the foreign teachers out there who move alright for a 2kyu or there abouts but not for a higher dan rank? Is is not because of all the people who think they know something about the art but have never lived in Japan(nor have their teachers for that matter) but winge and whine about the problems with the art although they have never truly been exposed to the art as it was passed down from generation to generation? Is it not due to the people who put out books and videos of their crappy moves on youtube for the world to see and ridicule without understanding that even the basic techniques are supposed to be different based on what level you have achieved in the art?

So why do people think they can get an opinion of a Japanese art encompassing 9 different ryu that is very difficult and deep without having trained for years under the masters? Is it because they think that just because some of those who have studied in Japan but still aren't anything to write home about couldn't get it, then maybe they can bypass this step to becoming a ninjer?

Are not these the kind of people that are to blame for the international reputation the art has or is there something else amiss? Some say that ninjutsu needs to be updated, ala STK and Toshindo, George Rodger, or whatever brand of the month you encounter. They leave before they have any true understanding of the art, or correct taijutsu, yet mix in some other ryu or some bjj and mma and teach their brand of ninjutsu with quasiBujinkan terms thrown in for effect.

This begs the question that if the art was so antiquated and useless, how come Hatsumi sensei and others of his original teachers have taught various police forces, special forces, and other military and le groups around the world? Surely it can't all be because of the cult of personality that makes those with contacts with the military think they can get rank for introducing the boss to somebody. How come the Japanese shihan(not all however) were known and respected fighters in their day?

So if Hatsumi sensei does indeed have the goods, and his original Japanese students have got the goods and they learned from him, why is it that so many foreigners have come and gone, and continue to come but don't get it? Sure we can blame the teacher for the mess, but don't students have to be responsible for their own education? Surely learning 1 year of Italian but quitting mid-semester and trying to mix some Spanish, French, and Chinese in sounds like a good idea to some(might even be able to impress some with your language prowess), but when you arrive in Italy or ever have to talk with an Italian, they will surely look at you and say che cazzo?

So can somebody explain why all the madness? Can't grown men be held responsible for their own nonsense or must we always be under the heel of Big Brother?

 

Anyone can have an opinion of it. Even a non-Ninpo'er might form an opinion of some sort simply by viewing, say, [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or27dASZjCg"]this[/ame], or, say, [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoq-FvEsO-k"]this[/ame].

Interesting. Perhaps you would care to state outright the analogous definition of "one year of college-level Italian"? What would it entail? What would be taught? Who are the ones qualified to teach it? What methods are used in teaching it? How is "Italian" used by these students?

Actually, your mention "Big Brother" isn't that far off the mark in terms of the nature of the control that a soke of any art would have (i.e. [virtually] despotic; traditional and quasi-traditional martial arts groups are very rarely anything even approaching democratic in nature, though exceptions may exist), and yes, as far as responsibility goes, the buck ultimately stops with him. If soke says "All right guys. No one is allowed to make videos/teach Art X/wield Weapon Z in public/drink Budweiser or beer of equivalent quality/etc. Violate that simple rule and get excommunicated!", then that's it really for the would-be video-makers/other-behavior performers; their choice is to obey or leave.

 

F'em, my training rocks.....

 

I think this post is a bit pointless as it's been argued over many times, the last one being 'We don't need your stinking instruction' on MAP.
But for those that don't like hearing it.

If you get to godan by Hatsumi does this not mean you are at a recognised level to teach or has the ante been moved up to 10th Dan, in which case another 5 years to and forth from Japan ,pleading with whoever for a grade will achieve this.

Most other arts that are time served grading wise, 1st dan usually indicates a basic understanding of the fundamental moves within that art, which roughly would be around 4/5 years. 10 years later down the timeline 3rd Dan is usually a good mark as would usually encompass a good understanding of the art in practice and being fluid in movement. getting to 5th after 15 years you'd be one of a few to have the interest to endure this long.
On the above there are some very good martial art practitioners around the world who teach Japanese Arts, yet have never set foot in Japan or been taught by a Japanese national aboard.

On cross training even Mr S.Yeo, 12th Dan in the Bujinkan, trains in Japan, also trains BJJ and Muay Thai and other arts for a broader understanding of martial arts in general, and passes his knowledge onto his students, does this make him a bad person, probably not because he's still a Bujinkan member.

On Hatsumi sensei being the source, that would be argued to the end of the Hatsumi era, because Hatsumi is at the top of the chain, who's to say he is'nt making this up he goes along. Know one will ever know apart from Mr H.

 

I am dumbfounded that you can write that paragraph without thinking about how badly it reflects on Soke.

Cake and eat it to. You can't have it both ways man.

-Daniel

 

Think you might find you get the same frame of mind in koryu.

I don't want to appear to be speaking for any specific ryu-ha, as it certainly isn't my place to do so, but generally speaking I think you'll find a similar sort of attitude towards this specific issue (going to Japan to learn).

When at the end of the day you have a person or persons that have been entrusted with the care and transmission of a ryu-ha then they are where you need to go for instruction, especially when you consider how these arts are transmitted.

Just because you have been given permission to teach that doesn't mean you don't have further learning an refinement.

 

Perhaps people have a problem with the organization rather than the art.I cant think of a single person who was once in the Bujinkan that does not see Hatsumi as the very epitome of a great martial artist.

 

I have said this before but.Does any would be golfer have to live in Scotland for several years and play at St.Andrews? Or perhaps they should just follow Tiger Woods around and watch how he does it ?Or would Tigers coach be the "one"to learn from?The very idea that you must visit Japan is excluding 99.9999999% of the worlds population who could not afford it .

 

And I hate to burst your bubble ,but the 9 school have not been passed down from generation to generation.I don't know who "the last of the mohicans"was but he is long dead

 

That's a completely irrelevant example. Golfers have gone everywhere and it's a sport.

There's an old (I think Arab) expression "Knowledge is where the scholars are" If Hatsumi-sensei, the Soke of the ryuha, lived in Mozambique - that would be where one goes to study. The idea of the headmaster as the source should be nothing knew to anyone familiar with history.

 

The following pretty much sums it up.

Reality Please and Saint George should pay close attention in particular....


[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2hRKC84am8"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2hRKC84am8[/ame]


- Mark Spada

 

Errr. Martial artists have "gone everywhere".So to be clear,are you saying that unless you go to Japan and learn directly from Hatsumi ,then you cannot learn well?

 

Reality Please said - "This begs the question that if the art was so antiquated and useless, how come Hatsumi sensei and others of his original teachers have taught various police forces, special forces, and other military and le groups around the world?"

Just for the sake of informing the discussion, could you elaborate on this by providing what training was provided, by who, when, whether it was a token demonstration, an invitation to teach a one-off class, an ongoing training program, so on and so forth.

"If the Bujinkan art does truly suck, is it not because of all the foreign teachers out there who move alright for a 2kyu or there abouts but not for a higher dan rank?"

What would be the cause of this situation would you say?

 

George,

Not wishing to sound harsh, that really isn't my intention, but I think you need to gain a broader and possibly deeper understanding of these things. You sort of miss the point to be honest.

 

You and your attitude might also be a contributing factor to why the Bujinkan sucks.You do yourself no favours with your "holier than thou"attitude.

 

Could you please elaborate on what you mean by this?

 

Sorry Dean you have lost me ,what things?I mean the passing of information from one family member to another died out,a bit like Monty Pythons parrot.

 

My comments about you missing the point was in response to yours about golf and learning in Japan, sorry I was on a hand held device which wouldn't let me quote for some odd reason.


So with the above comment is it your opinion that transmission down a family line no longer occurs?