Why shobu ippon kumite should require headgear--two videos

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Mitlov, Sep 2, 2009.

  1. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    quick note, gary, the jkf DOES use headguard for seniors.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83RDZRIqZOQ&feature=channel_page"]YouTube - Kokubun vs. Kanazawa[/ame]
     
  2. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    Also Llamageddon don't mock us too badly for being over-protective. That is what happens when the parenting bug descends on you. I played American Football and it is a pretty safe sport, but there is the very very rare spinal injury that can paralyze someone. Never thought about it when I was young. As a parent the risk of that injury would haunt me in every game I watched! I'm glad I have a daughter for that reason. As parents we take the 'long view' because youths are indestructible. Our job is to try to make sure that misconception of indestructibility doesn't turn into any real long term damage. You'll see and become a hand wringing worrier yourself someday. :)
     
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Tried to reply to this last night, but MAP was running slower than a baby with no legs.

    Yes, but I was replying to your comment. But shiai does not disappear when you start making contact, in fact it becomes even more important.


    Pretty much the opposite. With boxing gloves and wraps you can hit a target harder than you would in real life, because of the wrist support provided. But that does not carry across to mma style gloves (which in my experience tend to offer less padding than most Karate comp gloves and thus a more realistic element of distance and hand use). The density of most chest guards, and their lack of flexibility actually mean that you cannot hit harder with the fist without risking the wrist joint - so you can only hit with the same power that you would use on an unarmoured person.

    Unless you are taught bad striking technique, no strike should risk injury to the striking limb.
     
  4. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    I wasn't trying to mock anyone in particular :) - just illustrating the point that some parents have a tendency to go ott on some things. I've already decided that if I have a daughter she is never to leave the house!

    Mitlov - I understand that gloves place many restrictions on a karate-ka, but so can all protection. I was trying to point this out. Also, as for your old instructor, I'm very sorry to hear about his accident. However, although it is unfortunate it is an occupational hazzard we must accept every time we walk in to the dojo
     
  5. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    HAHAHAHAHA! I'm Llamageddon and I approve this message.
     
  6. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Hi Fish,

    I am not sure how old that footage is, or where it comes from exactly, but it is my understanding at senior level the JKF do not use helmets.

    I could be wrong and glad to be corrected, but here is some footage of the 2007 National Championship in Japan.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=16J0fgWGyaw&feature=related

    As I understand it the JKF pretty much toe the WKF line in these things (or it could be the other way round I don't know) and I believe I am right in saying that the WKF haven't officially approved a model or type of full on helmet.

    The WKF web site details a face mask as a "recommended" (but not compulsory) item of use.

    www.wkf.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135&Itemid=105

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  7. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Can't be full-on WKF as they don't have clown shoes.
     
  8. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Of course, but Shiai in itself is not always about beating your oponent with the power of the blow per-se, in much the same way that kendo is not about cutting through your opponent's wrist or neck (where as in in Kenjutsu it is perhaps).

    That's cool. Actually I haven't sparred with gloves on (unless training with one of the Juniors at the club) for about 10 years.

    So, would you say the full body armour thing is as much about allowing people to overcome their reservations in terms of hitting someone (and doing it in a way that is safe for them as an attacker) as it was external protection (for both parties)?

    Agreed

    Gary
     
  9. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Not sure when the clown shoes came in, but clearly the JKF boys don't like them either.

    Gary

    Ps, You ever tried riding your miniature bike in them!! it makes you the laughing stock I can tell you.
     
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV-tdJt898Q"]YouTube - haito-uchi[/ame]

    another jkf video

    been searching, and i can't find anything on jkf rules at all though, not to even mention rules on headgear.
     
  11. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I'm with Llamageddon. I introduced masked headgear to a kids Thai class. Changes the dynamics too much. Better to learn to take a smack and then learn to move and guard correctly. Nothing like a punch in the face to teach you.
    edit: Nice when the punch is wrapped in a great big boxing glove though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  12. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I've had a look as well, but can't find anything definitive.

    Again, I am not sure how old this clip is. For starters the competitors are wearing red and white belts.

    I am going to bob an email off to Robbie Smith tonight, to see whether he can throw any light on it.

    Robbie (who used to train with my group prior to moving to New Zealand) is a WKF referee as well as a 6th dan within the JKF.

    I will let you know.


    Gary
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Confession, I read that too quickly and my comment was about Maai.



    Yes, this was part of the focus of my last article in Jissen magazine
    http://www.jissenmag.com/documents/Jissen_Issue_5.pdf

    Jissen 6, out soon, will have the companion article discussing receiving contact.


    JWT
     
  14. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Hi,

    Just got an email back.

    The JKF do have an approved head guard by Mizuno. It is available from the likes of Tokaido or Hirota direct from Japan.

    [​IMG]

    But it would appear reading the blurb on the Tokaido site that they are compulsory only for "some" semi contact and non contact competitions.

    www.tokaidojapan.com/ntokaido/index...id=177&zenid=6b9e7253fbe8c153eb59b4b79acf739b

    Mind you, not cheap though - you are looking at upwards of $150.00 per helmet plus shipping.

    I guess the JKF is a huge assoc., with many groups affiliated to it (JKA included). Some groups might insist on head guards being worn (in which case they are probably the JKF approved ones) whereas other don't. It seems that in the JKF Nationals they do not wear them.

    Also - the WKF have a new head guard out that is compulsory for 14/15 year olds (but its not the same as the JKF one) - as well as a body protector:

    [​IMG]

    Who knows whether these will creep into the adult comps as well?

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
  15. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    filling people with protection for semi or non-contact, yet going basically naked for harder contact? the logic in that is so amazing it threatens to leave me a drooling imbecile. no wait, that was the sound of my iq dropping into negative values.
     
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    besides, kokubun and kanazawa were CLEARLY whacking each other quite hard, and a lot of hard strikes are visible rebounding against the face mask, so that was clearly jka level contact.
     
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's the sort of helmet that really ****es me off. Huge gaps on the head and a gaping great hole in front of the eyes. The body guard's lack of rib protection is shocking.
     
  18. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Don't know about you, but I feel that padding around my waist would definitely effect my distance given that I was potentially 2 inches closer to my oponent.

    That and the fact that my gut is at least 6" in front of my chin these days anyway :(

    Gary
     
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I'm not too enthusiastic about a chest protector for karate. For something where people are throwing full-force roundhouse kicks in quick succession into each other (i.e., WTF Taekwondo or Sanda), I can see it. But not for Shotokan. You can take a punch to your gut or chest (women may feel differently about the chest issue; I can see them wanting something that would disperse the force of a punch to the breast).

    But for punching each other to the face, Fish of Doom really summed up how I feel.
     
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    @garywado: could be worse.




    instep pads.




    instep pads pretty much as thick as the wearer's foot.
     

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