Why shobu ippon kumite should require headgear--two videos

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Mitlov, Sep 2, 2009.

  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    These are high school kids in Tokyo. First video is boys; second video is girls. Notice the martial spirit and the intent in their attacks (reminds me of old-school JKA kumite), but also notice how nobody is losing teeth or getting their eye orbits or noses broken or anything.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_FiYnybeF4"]YouTube - JKF Tokyo High School Championships Boy's Team Kumite Finals[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX44nlh0a_U"]YouTube - JKF Tokyo High School Championships Girl's Team Kumite Final[/ame]

    I think mandatory headgear would cultivate this sort of kumite culture, because you're not worrying about whether you're going to knock your competitors' teeth out. You're still pulling power somewhat--this isn't KO-seeking full contact--but it allows for a whole lot more intense action without a whole lot of injury.
     
  2. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I see what you are saying Mitlov, but I think wearing the gear yourself (and thus being a little more protected than usual) and knowing that your oponent's head is also protected - changes the dynamics of it somehow.

    Difficult to explain.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  3. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    But isn't that part of the point? If you don't bear any ill will towards someone (i.e., they're a training partner or a competitor in a competition), not everyone is willing to attack someone's unprotected face with a bare-knuckle punch with full intent, even if they intend on pulling the punch at the last moment (which doesn't always work). The headgear not only protects the face of the person being punched, but it removes the well-meaning inhibitions of the person who is punching.
     
  4. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    The JKF tend to follow the rule-set of the WKF when it come to Shiai.

    Certainly in my group (affiliated to the JKF) all juniors and Cadets wear head gear.

    Having never being treated to this luxury I am interested to hear from any one who has gone from the Junior/cadet levels to senior (where they don't wear head gear). Has it affected their confidence in any way?

    Gary
     
  5. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Granted,

    I was thinking more about the inevitable (or possible) counter punch to your own face!

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  6. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    TBH I've never fought or trained in head gear (or body armour for that matter) so I can't speak from any experience.

    I just know that my first priority in fighting is not hitting my oponent as hard as possible, its more about not getting hit myself.

    Gary
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Gotcha, you're worried about people attacking without any thought of defense because of a "Superman" complex that arises out of the protective gear? I wouldn't worry too much about that.

    First, they're going to still protect their face from a counterpunch because that counterpunch could score an ippon and cost them the match.

    Second, they're going to still protect their face because getting hit in the head, even with headgear, still sucks. I haven't used karate headgear, but I fenced for four years, and your head getting knocked back by a hit on your mask is decidedly unpleasant, even if it doesn't cause any localized trauma on the face.

    I don't see that the use of headgear is any more harmful to the realism of karate kumite than the very idea of "light contact" is.
     
  8. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    I've always found that the higher grades don't have a problem trying to hit someone in the face, because the opponent should be able to defend themselves, or the person throwing the technique will pull at the last minute. But of course, accidents happen - it is a combat 'sport' after all...

    Headgear may help, but if it's to be used I don't think it should be worn all the time as standard, as it would change the rules of the game, the way people train, and the general ethos of the styles of karate we learn. It may be a small point, but learning to pull punches, and knowing when to pull and when not to pull (or not to pull as much) is a fantastic kinetic way to train power control.
     
  9. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Not really, I am more worried about me getting a "superman" complex, not my oponent.

    The very real possibility of getting hit in the face when attacking puts a whole new spin on your kumite. Ma-ai, Sen angle of attack etc.

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  10. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    True, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take precautions for when things don't go as planned. After all, why do boxers wear cups if punching below the belt is illegal?

    I don't disagree that that is a really important skill. But I would argue that bare-knuckle jiyu kumite in the dojo is the perfect environment for developing that sort of skill. You shouldn't be using a tournament as the environment where you learn that skill. And if you already have that skill from jiyu kumite within your dojo, competing in a tournament every few months with headgear on doesn't diminish it.

    Another equally-useful skill is actually landing a blow on a fully-resisting opponent who is not cooperating in the slightest bit...and that's where I think competitive kumite with headgear is the best option.
     
  11. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I understand; that's the concern that I was replying to in reply #7.
     
  12. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Mitlov,

    Would I be right in thinking you haven't done too much Kumite in your Karate training?

    Gary
     
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Trust me, even when wearing really good headgear, the effect of being hit in the face is so unpleasant that it isn't going to modify your tactics. Even when wearing full armour I have guys who really don't enjoy launching into attacks because of how unpleasant the counters are.
     
  14. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    so in that case why not just wear boxing sparring gloves? As for precautions - do you wrap your kids up in bubble wrap or do you let them learn from their mistakes? In the end, protection is good but can restrict technique
     
  15. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Hehe...Stings a bit more without it though I bet. :)

    Gary
     
  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Yes and no.

    1999-2003: Full-contact sparring (with protective gear) was the primary focus of my taekwondo training. We did a mix of pad-work and light-contact sparring on weeknight trainings; a two-hour full-contact sparring class took place every Saturday morning. Also competed in a Shotokan tournament that took place at my university. It was my first taste of shobu ippon kumite, and I can't say I liked it.

    2003-2005: Started Shotokan. Kumite--a mix of yakusoku and jiyu kumite with moderate contact for either (bruised ribs were the norm, not the exception)--received about 50% of class time; the remainder of time was split between kata and kihon. Very much liked the moderate-contact jiyu kumite.

    2007-present: Training at a different Shotokan dojo due to a relocation for work. Kumite beyond yakusoku kumite is not heavily emphasized.
     
  17. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Ahh you see, I kinda knew you were "pining for the fjords" in this respect.

    Gary
     
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Stings isn't the word. Light contact to the face stings. Light contact to the body stings. The level of contact we are making to the body would break bones without the armour. To the head, where we do pull slightly because you can't isolate the upper spine and have a practical headguard, we'd be looking at spitting teeth, broken jaws, missing eyes and fractured skulls.
     
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Boxing gloves restrict technique a whole lot more than headgear would. They change how you make a fist; their size changes the dynamics of blocking entirely (i.e., the modern boxing guard versus the Jack Dempsey guard). Headgear...arguably it has some effect on psychology, but setting aside that argument, how would it actually restrict technique? It doesn't change how you punch or kick or move.

    I let my boys learn from their mistakes when we're talking about skinned knees and run-of-the-mill bumps and bruises. Not when we're talking about falling five feet or playing with kitchen knives. "Getting your bell rung" and bruised ribs and broken toes are the adult versions of skinned knees in my opinion. Broken teeth don't grow back.

    For what it's worth, the instructor at the dojo I trained at from 2003-2005 no longer does karate because of an eye injury sustained from a bare-knuckle punch to the face.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009
  20. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I hear what you are saying (and interested in it tbh), but doesn't having two fighters clad in armour want to make them hit each other harder than they normally would (thus expending excess energy and risking injury to the striking limb - compared to if the oponent was not padded)?

    Also, wasn't Mitlov's post about Shiai?

    Gary
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2009

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