Why Kata?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by yuen, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    No, I believe I said it in just four words. If you need more to understand it I suggest you invest time and energy researching the topic of Kata properly, learning a Kata, and investing the time to train it properly. If you're not prepared to do that but instead wish to repeat variations on the same statement over and over again based on your own limited experience of Kata then you are simply wasting your time and that of others in trolling this thread in the Karate forum. That's a shame because you could instead be making productive comments on things you do know about elsewhere.

    If you really want to pursue this argument you could still make a positive contribution by listing what you believe are all the key facets of shadow boxing. Karateka on this thread could then comment on which of these they are personally working (or not) while doing solo Kata.
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    because i like ****ing you off? ;)

    i laid my own points well in advance too, and still we both counter-argue each other regardless. i like kata, you don't. i do solo kata only occasionally, and see merits in them as regarding karate-specific development through training that arises from kata (NOT just their solo practice), mostly involving punching people very hard and having them try to avoid it, while you come from a system that does not use them, and has other ways of developing its specific attributes, but is also known for training pretty goddamned hard, which most karateka don't do, or do while focusing on the wrong things from a purely combative standpoint, because they equate practice of the style with fighting, whereas neither the style nor the fight are things one "does", but rather a collection of training methodologies and an event, respectively, where the former are or should be based on actions that one takes in the latter.
  3. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    re: kata and shadow-boxing, i'll present the flipside: shadow-boxing is kata. technically, being ultra-anal about the definition of the word (and may the japanese people and the koryu bujutsu guys forgive me if i get it wrong), the term kata in japanese is contextually used to refer to any pre-defined activity designed to learn or train something by going through the motions. you can have kata for such things as sitting correctly or serving tea. shadow-boxing in this sense can be considered a kata, or, even more anally, a collection of kata for individual moves, as you go through the motions of each individual attack or combo. get a combo you like so much that you do it over and over? you've just made it into a kata. the jab-cross? that's a kata right there, albeit one simply consisting of a jab and a cross. that the kata of karate are convoluted and can involve anything from footwork patterns, hand techniques and body posture to the ridiculously abstract like looking from side to side or movements so changed that they seem to have no discernible meaning is purely incidental to how the karate lineages developed. don't like it? learn them all and subvert the system from within ;)
  4. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    How long did it take you to learn that?
    I suppose your quite used to doing it now, like probably can do it without thinking now.... right?
  5. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    didn't really take long. a night. depends - many gyms have their own variations on it. I'm honestly not that bothered about it, I usually just seal the ring and thats it - dont do the full thing, but if you go to thailand you're expected to do the full thing or the referee and judges etc. think you're being disrespectful... which you are in a way. It's their sport, their culture that spawned it and therefore their rules.
  6. yuen

    yuen Valued Member

    since a posted this thread, I agree with with some of you saying that Kata will be good if you know the application.

    Some Shotokan Katas that I have learnt or learning and knowing the application with it, has helped me gain a few more techniques on defending myself. I agree that Kata would be useless if you don't know the application, but come to think of it, a Kata can

    1.Help you gain mental and physical strength
    2.Practise your breathing (on when to let your energy out)
    3.Know to defend yourself

  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    say what?
  8. Seventh

    Seventh Super Sexy Sushi Time

    Say what?
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That is a good way to say it. This is not to say that kata isn't important in Goju-ryu karate. Everything that most people will ever need for self defense application is in the Goju-ryu kata.

    I would help out and sometimes substitute teach self defense classes for Hartwig Sensei. He never taught a kata in self defense classes; however, I recognized every movement/application he taught as something from the bunkai of a kata.

    Learning the kata was not necessary at all for self defense. However, for people like me that wanted to pass on a system to the next generation, kata and the performance of kata was very important.
  10. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    It depends on which techniques you're talking about. Take the mawashi uke I posted before.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs72JTnuvBw"]Kyokushin Karate Part I - Mawashi Uke - YouTube[/ame]

    Application: (at 0:38)
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAZWdEoDZjQ"]Enshin Karate Nederland - YouTube[/ame]
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nice eye for detail Kuma. Did you know that bunkai was in there beforehand?

    Hey have you seen this variation for the bunkai shown here at 34 seconds?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uviL9WxQQE8"]Nakamura Sensei - Sesan bunkai - YouTube[/ame]
  12. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Never seen that one before, but it's certainly interesting. Might have to play around with that. Thanks for the tip!
  13. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    As I was catching up and approaching the current postings on this thread, I had almost the same set of thoughts. And Fish said it better than I could have.

    I have a kata for getting in and out of the car for Christ sake! No really, I do. I'm a tall guy (Fish, I know you're a short guy, so just tune this out ok? lol) and if I don't perform it every time, I run the risk of smashing my knee into the dashboard.

    Can kata help you fight? Absolutely. It heightens your awareness not just of punching and kicking but of turning/spinning (and other aspects) as well. Not as critical fighting against one opponent, but fighting more than one opponent...yes. Most kata that I've seen have engaging more than one opponent in mind.

    As others have said, kata must not be worked in a vacuum. You must combine with bag work, conditioning, drills, bunkai and other aspects of training. Or it really is just dancing as has been stated.
  14. monkeywrench

    monkeywrench Valued Member

    Why Kata?

    This is why!

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgsUYFo4Z-0"]Karate Kid III Training - YouTube[/ame]
  15. lma

    lma Valued Member

    My world almost came to an end when I found out Pat Morita didnt know karate or even speak Japanese (not even with an accent). Best block no be there .......... All written by some unknown guy behind the scenes. Many Of my club quit when I Broke the news to them.
  16. melbgoju

    melbgoju Valued Member

  17. lma

    lma Valued Member

    Not really but many of them were honestly heart broken lol.
  18. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    i knew that.......sometimes you can just tell training for a movie as opposed to actual MA training. I think he did well with it. He was believable as the wise kind Sensei. Sad that people in your club quit because of that. I think that would have made morita sad.
  19. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    To be fair JWT it's all very well blaming Master Betty for being unwilling to seek out the "proper" way to train kata but in reality that's probably not a practical option. The only art I know of that is widely available, incorporates kata training and produces full-contact fighters is kyokushin - and who's to say that whatever club he comes across will teach that aspect in the "right" way? It just seems to me that you could waste so much time trying all of these things out just to see if you will have some kind of epiphany, especially if - like Master Betty - you have professional fights to prepare for. If I were a prospective karateka, I would much rather you explained this aspect of training to me rather than - with respect - fob me off like that.

    But surely the critical difference between shadow boxing and kata is not the range of techniques used but the spontaneity of the performance? So if you can perform these techniques in the air in a choreographed fashion why not mix it up?
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I appreciate your point. Not everyone trains Kata as they are told to do, even the instructors. However you are making an assumption about fighters. You've chosen to highlight Kyokushin. Why? Because their system engages in full contact bouts? Because a number of successful MMA fighters have originated in Kyokushin stables? That's ignoring a lot of very very good TMA
    fighters who only competed in point contests. That's ignoring people who've successfully used their Karate in self defence or in conflict at work.

    Who's to say we don't? :) We move according to what we visualise.

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