Why isn't there more money in K-1, UFC etc. in comparison to boxing?

Hello! I started this thread not because I want to have a shot at UFC or anything, but mainly out of curiosity (and I have been reading a book by Jeffrey Sachs, and I am bored). I have been reading lately about the slight possibility of Tyson going to K-1, despite them not being able to offer him enough money. Since I am an econ major, I have been wondering why there isn't more money involved in those contests. I have several explanations for myself, but I wanted to see what the more knowledgeable people would have to say. Here are the (very basic) explanations:

1) Too many wanna-be's (negative). It could be the case that the availability of too many fighters. Since MMA contests draw from nearly all MA's there is a larger available pool of fighters. Basic supply and demand tell us that since there are so many fighters, a lot of which are very good, the leagues can afford to pay less money, because if a person doesn't agree, then, hey, they will just get another Cambodian fighter, who is just as good. In this aspect, UFC and K-1 differ significantly than boxing, because boxing draws from a much smaller pool. In the future, as awareness of UFC etc. increases, the pool of available fighters will only increase, and as a result this is a factor that will always keep the money available to competitors down. In comparison, boxing's declining popularity and MMA's increasing popularity would draw the types who do boxing to MT or BJJ, further decreasing the pay-out to fighters.

2) Publicity (positive). As far as I am concerned, this should not really be an issue. UFC, and K-1 are huge in Asia, which is the most populous continent in the world. In addition, the tournaments are gaining popularity in the Western World, as well, where they draw fans from the boxing crowd, so that means a lot more people would potentially want to see a UFC match than a boxing match. However, it is more complicated than that.

People in the Western world have more purchasing power than those in Asia. Therefore, promoters can afford to hike up prices of tickets and pay-per-view events and still attract large crowds. Therefore, there is more in royalties for the players. However, this is a factor that should not be of that much importance, because if 5000 people pay $50 for a boxing game, it is still the same as 100000 Asians paying $25 for a K-1 match. Therefore, royalties should be about even.

UFC and K-1 enjoy a larger fan-base. As already mentioned, people from all over the world watch K-1 and UFC, while mainly people from USA, Europe, and some South American countries are interested in boxing. A good percentage of those people are always interested in UFC, so clearly the MMA comps should draw more spectators. Furthermore, boxing is on the decline, while UFC is on the upswing. This is a factor that should keep money available to contestants up, and will only be improving in the future.

3) Cost of living (negative). Tyson has $40 mil in debt. It is very hard to get that type of debt in an Asian, South American, or Eastern European country, whose GDP is a bit higher than that. Most UFC fighters come from those countries, therefore they will be willing to work for $50,000, because in those countries, that would be the equivalent of $200,000 in America, as far as purchasing power goes. Boxing, on the other hand, draws fighters mainly from the Western World (and some South American countries), so fighters need a lot more money to cover their training and living expenses. Therefore, they will only fight for higher pay-outs. Currently, this is a factor that keeps rewards in UFC down.

However, as UFC and K-1 become more popular, more fighters from the Western World will join. Their alternative, if they want to stay competitive is to either demand higher pay-outs, or move to Asia. An American who practices every day after his 9-5 job cannot be nearly as competitive as an Asian fighter whose whole life revolves around training. While this might not seem like a big factor, which could drive pay-outs up, it might be more important than it seems.

If UFC would like to tap more aggressively in the Western Markets, it would have to draw more Western fighters, with which the audience can identify itself (I am a fan of Cro Cop, because I am from Eastern Europe). It is always more fun to cheer for the American than for some guy from Thailand, whose name you can't pronounce, much less remember. That reality, could eventually lead to higher pay-outs, but it is unlikely.

So, bottom line is that, while UFC money is likely to increase in the future, it will not be by much. That is from a very basic economic analysis (which could be wrong, mind you). Money will also be decreasing in boxing, as more and more people are becoming disinterested (no more charismatic fighters such as Forman, Tyson, Ali, Butterbean ).

I would also like to hear your opinions of why there is not more money in UFC, K-1 etc. Somehow, it seems that there should be.

 

Western audiences and western culture have now been thoroughly permeated by Hong Kong's kung-fu movies. Whereas boxing used to look exciting and karate positively exotic, we now want martial arts to include spinning flip-kicks and preferably magic too. The Matrix, house of flying daggers, crouching tiger etc have all been hugely successful and massively increased western expectations of what is an "entertaining fight". Likewise with WWF/WWE wrestling - whereas we used to be satisfied with watching two fat men in leotards belly-bouncing each other, now we want flying arm-bars and head scisssors or it just looks dull. When it comes down to it, the UFC is manned by real fighters who use real, effective moves which are always going to be the simple, hammering blows, low kicks, shoots ("rugby tackles") and fisticuffs. Unless you're actually aware of the tactics that go into such fighting, you're back to watching two big guys in trunks swatting at each other. We've been bred to expect more than that from martial arts fights and without the flying head scissors, flying triple-kicks and spinning leg sweeps it just looks dull. It isn't 'glamorous' enough.

 

Excellent post Moosey, I completely agree.

 

Couldn't agree more, the public (along with many martial artists) don't want to see what a real fight looks like, they want to see what they 'think' a real fight should look like.
And that is one of the main reasons UFC and K-1 aren't bigger (don't get me wrong I know they are huge but by boxing or wrestling standards they're small fry) when the public hear about an event that puts some of the worlds best fighters against each other they want to see some little 70 year old Japanese guys using their 'chi' to win the fight, then when they see what it really is, they get disillusioned, so they go away thinking to them self's "well the guy using chi and stuff would have won if he had entered" and they vow never to watch again until 'chi man' enters, which as we all know is not going to happen.

 

The stuff in your second paragraph is complete rubbish. Not many people care about a 70 y-o japanese guy doing chi blasts.
This is what it comes down to -
Boxing = interesting, because you have guys throwing punches, doing slippage, bobbing and weaving, and you have some grand knockout punches.
What do you have in the UFC - two large guys wailing on each other. I mean come on. How many people can relate to two large guys rolling on the ground, and just slugging at each other. To the ordinary spectator, there is no technique apparent. None whatsoever.

 

Moosey, Timmy Boy and BigBoss' posts were bang on.

OK... get ready for my rant...

Many people in the west were raised on boxing or at the exotic end of things something like Karate as was stated above. So any match they've seen excepting Movie-Fu is probably the PKA style fights or point fighting like you have in some TKD.

Americans generally don't mind some good violence. As long as it's Movie-Fu or Rambo or patrol cars flipping through the air and gasoline explosions. They love French idiots who are ex-ballet guys not fighters (and never have been). They eat up squinty Greek guys from the East Coast who.. well.. squint their way through crappy films. lol.

But give them eblows to the head, or knee shattering round houses or top notch technical ground work and they are lost. They see two guys rolling around and hugging each other...

if you had a buck for every homo comment you got from someone who didn't have a clue as to what grappling was... then you'd never need to fight because you'd be a rich mo-fo!

What does this say about much of the west?! Insecure about their sexuality and a massive lack of understanding of the martial arts. Lots of bravado but very little action. Lots of macho but very little real time skill or technique.

You'd think that the average person had more exposure to MA's besides Karate and TKD.... but they don't.

That's not a slam on either of those arts (As much as I like to wind up TKD guys there are tons out there that are insanely good - so don't kill me )

What it really is as comment on how the west has actually very little exposure to MA's in action. They on the whole percieve it much the same as Ballet for Christ's sake! Or like sending little Jimmy for soccer (footy for you limey's )

They often forget at the end of the day a very large part of MA's is about taking out your opponent!! Putting their head out! Arm barring them! Submitting them! Landing that blisteringly fast low kick!

But what can you do... strip mall mentality is pervasive. Even Benny the Jet has said that Americans don't want to see Muay Thai - that Americans don't want to see elbows thrown. Pffffttttt!!!!!

There are tons of other factors why MMA or K-1 doesn't have the amount of money that boxing does... Broadcast rights via Cable or HBO... all the Old Money in boxing... All the Mob money in boxing... all the Mob Money in the fight venues... it wasn't Little Bo Peep who set up Las Vegas.. lol.

Sigh.

 

People don't appreciate real violence.
Oh, and where exactly is the money going to come from?

 

Yo, I think you guys want to force MMA on people. The fact of the matter is the guard position does look very "gay", not to mention back mount positions. And two guys rolling around on ground with each other is not something you want to see. I mean, you certainly won't take your girlfriend to see two large guys rubbing on each other. But you will take her to see a boxing match. Yeah?
It's different for you guys, because you know what's going on, you like to see a guy pass the guard, go into sidemount then transition to an armbar. But to someone not familiar with grappling (like most people), it looks like one fat guy puts leg on shoulder, then tries to hump other guy before lying on top of him. And that, looks gay.

 

Think you've hit the nail on the head there!

 

Whatever. Until you can actually do it, or have even bothered trying, keep your gay opinions to yourself.

 

lol. I've been doing BJJ for quite a while now, and I really like it. But I won't deny that to an onlooker who's never seen it before. It looks very very gay.

 

only to morons

 

yeah. i think my friends find it a bit odd when we watch an mma match and it gets to grappling. im sitting there enraptured, they are looking puzzled and kind of uncomfortable

 

Man your sad.

 

Sad? And only to morons, KE.
I'm telling you, it does not look normal to most people. You've seen it and you like it because you understand. But, to others, it looks weird.
It's like hearing two professors describing an inversion motion using a two-state hamiltonian without having taken quantum. It sounds like uninteresting nonsense. But take quantum and go back to them and bam! - you're completely swallowed.

 

guys, scarlet mist has a valid point. as he stated this IS joe publics view, like it or not.

 

Nahhh... what makes you think that?!

You know what - it doesn't bother me. I spent a lot of time living in North Hollywood.. notorious as a crack area and a cruising district. The first thing you learn is that just because someone is gay it doesn't mean they can't scrap. Spend some time in NYC - lot's of guys there who can get down and can get down. I've never had a problem with those guys - it's always the macho idiots who don't know what grappling is that somehow compare it to what two gay blokes do. Jeez - you'd think these idiots spend all their time watching gay porn since they seem to know so much about how gays go about getting down... it's retarded and say more abou their mentality than about MMA or grappling or even what gay people do.

So when I watch MMA or any of that... I leave all the gay/not gay nonsense at the door. It has no place in it. Man that shiznizz is WEAK - I leave all of that out of my life period. It's too short to stress on what others do with their tools. What people do in their own beds is their business - I don't care and I don't lose sleep over it. Fools who stress on that shows real personal issues and real insecurities with themselves and their sexuality.

Yeah why not? They know what's up. They know it's not 'two large guys rubbing each other' - only so many guys seem to have this problem.

Wrong. Most girls don't have that insecurity that so many men have. They have a keen ability to see things for what they are. They can be so much more clued up than guys in this respect. None of my girlfriends has ever brought up the gay issue in regards to the wrestling... most were amazed how 'tricky' it looked... and were always impressed how long a person could hold on even when being beaten to a pulp... or impressed when someone like Nogueira ends up submitting fools from the guard! - So in short no 99% of the women I know don't waste their time with dimestore sexual evaluations that show more insight into the insecurity of the person mouthing off than they do about guys competing in the MMA.

Sure why not. Again they can discern things for what they are... they often don't have this machismo that so many men have.

No it doesn't it looks scary. No girl I know has ever thought it looked gay. Only guys who have worries about themselves have popped off with the whole gay issue.

The problem is that so many guys are too full of machismo and insecurity to deal with two guys grappling. What a bunch of fools. I'd hate to let that lame ass attitude prevent people from knowing more about MMA and enjoying MMA bouts and getting a chance to see just how technical it can be.

 

I've just spoken to an expert on such matters, and he assures me that you're right.

For those who are offended, why?
21st Century and all that, we should have got passed the stage where gay=bad.

The issue however is not the homoerotic look of the fighting, the "pink pound" is very significant these days as there are many gay people out there with a lot more disposable income than their heterosexual counterparts who have children. If anything it's likely to bring more money into the sport.

Everybody who has done MA for any length of time realises that real fighting isn't like it is in the movies and is an ugly business. Whilst I have no doubt that the fighters in UFC have a lot of skill and are expert grapplers, that isn't going to change the perception of the general public, and like it or not, the general public will take things at face value.

To most people, myself included, two men grappling in a cage is boring. Unless you are actually doing BJJ or some other grappling art and watching out of technical interest, it is about as interesting as watching paint dry. You can see this in the presentation of the events were a lot of time is spent talking about the fighters and the fights, (I'd guess about half the time from the bits of UFC that I've seen) in order to generate more interest in the outcome of the fight. Compare this to a televised boxing match where most of the program time is actually spent on the fight itself.

UFC lacks the high drama of staged wrestling like WWF, it also lacks the relatively easy to follow violence of boxing. Ask most members of the general public how a boxing match ended and they'll describe with relish the knockout or who had superiority through most of the fight. Many UFC matches rely on techniques where the pain and violence is far from obvious to the untrained eye.

 

I think if the general public became more knowledgable about grappling there would be more money in it. Boxing as a commercial sport has been around so long that real boxing fans are familiar with the technical side of the art, even if they don't box.

It will take time but I think the more grappling oriented stuff will gain popularity as that part of the fanbase expands - I'm talking about guys who love to watch grappling but don't actually do it themselves, like Tekkengod

 

Iron Mike in K1

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,10488,1404903,00.html

May be of interest to some of you, information on Tyson future possibilities