Why is Taekwondo looked down on?

Its actually not a debate I wanna get into.. I see the benefits of the Ch'ang Hon system.. I dont feel I have got "there" via another route.. I simply followed TKD. I don't wanna get into the debate purely because the ITF and other schools go along way against what i do.. right or wrong.. they have chopped our arm off!

Stuart

 

I can tell you now, my 1st point of attack, in being pre-emptive is a right hook.. no "fetish" for the legs for me. That said, I also like the TKD mode of thinking.. the legs are the longest and strongest weapons.. however, i would use them for a low kick, nt a head kick first! Most altercations start from "verbal2 range.. therefore hands are our first line of defence. that said.. from longer ranges Id employ kicks, just as much as from closer ranges Id employ throws or elbows..

Kicks simply take a bit longer to train and develop...

"Yop Cha Jirugi"
"Side Kick punch"
AKA get your kicks as fast as your punches

Stuart

 

No I simply meant that I found that path by listening & reading what gen Choi directed, which was train SD under realistic conditions. Thats all. I guessed you got to the same place by it wasn't via that exact path I took, as you have trained the whole system & apparently it came to you easier than me. Maybe it was all those intensive pick apart the patterns training I did, that may have served to confuse me - like it seems to do to so many.

 

Heh heh...I should have clarified. I have had many good conversations with them AFTER listening to the obligatory bashing of TMAs. What you talk about is certainly there. You have to shrug off all the jokes about kata or posing in exaggerated krotty stances and yelling 'KIYAH!' Once you spar with them or roll with them, however, then a REAL martial arts conversation can occur.

Dammit! I am thinking of Daido Juku. Yes I know about the triathlon of martial arts. It actually was a clever way of preserving various aspects of the art to make sure all three areas are learned (so a practitioner doesn't solely focus in the areas where they are good and only learn to defend against the areas where they are bad.

Yeah it is a safe bet he has all three parts of the triathlon covered....

Ah our feelings are actually not too different. The only real difference is I think the 'fetish' for kicking is perfectly acceptable and good. And yes I like the word fetish. I use my hands as well, but the instinct to kick is definitely there. And I'll even admit my fetish extends to being able to do fancy kicks like the 360 degree jump spinning side, tornado kick, etc. Not during sparring (although I'll give it a go if I think I can pull it off), but mostly because they are fun and challenging.

I'll bite. I think saying 'Choi gave but few followed...Sadly few follow Choi's instruction...' is a bit of revisionist history. I know from other posts you made that you have a realistic vision of Choi and don't put him on a pedestal. But to portray many of the ITF descendants as 'not following his vision'. I'm in the NW of the USA. We were part of the ITF when Choi was in Canada. Not only did some of the old timers go and compete in the Canadian tournaments but Choi himself tested some of the first black belts through the school. One of them is one of the senior ranks in the organization and I have chatted with him about the good old days (and others from the same era who have since passed away). I was actually around back then, but I was a snot nosed kid.

Did people train hard back then? Yes! We actually still do the same workouts but I'd say the training was harder back then. Why? Mostly because the class was filled with young men. If you look at the old photos is is almost exclusively men in the 20s and early 30s. The kid or woman was the very rare exception. You put that many young men in a room and have them punch and kick at each other things are going to get brutal. But the training (IE what we did) was pretty much the same.

Yes we did self-defense, and disarms, break-aways, controls, and sweeps, etc. Yes we had a makiwara...yes our korean master used to run around punching peoples fist when he didn't think their weapon was tight enough. But the propensity (fetish) to kick definitely existed then as it does now. You would be hard pressed to show the opposite (that Choi gave the opposite directive and didn't want such a reliance on kicking).

I agree with you and StuartA that the spectrum of TKD is broader than sport based sparring. But not enough to where those directly under Choi would look THAT different than good modern day practitioners. It wasn't like they instinctively looked for the Thai clinch, or had an active ground game that would have allowed them to avoid the humiliation that was 1993, etc. My point is the holes in our game were still there back then, even if they were heavily influenced by Choi.

 

I see.. I guess my path was part instruction (by my TKD instructor), part common sense and part wishful thinking. One of the reasons I introduced "choke sparring" to my own classes was because it was an area I wanted to train myself on a regular basis.. problem was, it was a catch22, because it didnt quite work out how I wanted it to (which was to train myself), because it took a number of years for any of my students to get to a level to mount a serious challenge.. and Im not saying that as a boast, what Im trying to show is that even though in my instructors club we dipped into some of these areas occasionally and myself and John (a fellow BB, friend and training partner) did it more indepthly after classes (esp. Trad type sparring) it was the 'wanting' to do it more than 'occasionally' myself, that meant it ended up as part of the regular training in my class and eventually within the grading criteria too. Its actually quite selfish if you think about it... because in essense, my classes and the syllabus are really the syllabus I wished I had as a kup grade in training.

Stuart

 

Though it lacks a certain ettique to act like that in a class full of students IMO, its okay for guys liek you who can prove yourself... but what about the guys who havnt done anythig of note before and that is their first exposure to martial arts... they are influenced by stuff like that.. go home, go a a forum and repeat it all ad nuseum.. you know, you`ve read it most likely!

You know, this may be the clue to the "revolving" door type thing you mentioned.. in TKD you can do the serious stuff, the deeper study, the hard sparring, but you can also do other engaging or fun stuff like the 360 jump kicks or comp sparring.. maybe some of the MMA clubs do not have enough areas to keep people engaged over a long period (I'm talking longletivity here.. not classes).. if its all "..on the mats.. train train train.." sorta hardcore all the time.. perhaps that turns off a lot of people. Certainly overlly hardcore TMA classes do.


Stuart

 

maybe some of the MMA clubs do not have enough areas to keep people engaged over a long period

I think you're probably right there. When you are developing pragmatic fighting skills actual techniques are generally pretty simple (as Matt Thornton says there are no advanced techniques...only basic techniques done REALLY well) and it then just becomes a matter of honing those over time and getting your timing better (that's generally the BJJ way of doing things). Now that IS the way to get better at fighting but takes a certain sort of person to keep with such a spartan programme.
It's one of the reasons my approach to martial arts has become more encompassing of late...there are just so many cool things to learn!

 

I only put him on a pedestal that he deserves as a principal founder of TKD, not on a pedestal as someone who was more than that, or in the sense of the way that phrase is usually used. He was a human being, flawed & far from perfect as we all are. But he did dedicate his entire life to developing & spreading the Art he loved so much, even at the expense of things like his own family

Yes but did you do free sparring where it is essentially an open combat with all available techniques used for attack & defense? Or did you guys just do tuffer tournament rules sparring?
How realistic did you train SD? Was there a willing partner or a resisting opponent? Was it free flowing or 1 technique at a time?

 

I know 1 thing, original TKD seems to me to be a complete MA. Is it the best method to learn nothing more than street SD? Probably not. Can it be better at it? Of course. Will methods that train solely for street SD or emphasize it much more than original TKD be better at reaching that main goal? I would hope so & that seems just like common sense to me. Now if I join a TKD school for SD & after time I see & experience just sport tournament match rules saprring, that does not allow me to use more of the techniques that I have only been introduce to, then see other schools training realisitc, with even grabbing, holding & continuing to struggle on the floor, then of course I will think or feel the grass is greener on that other side of that particular fence. Makes sense to me. However original TKD was designed for more than just SD & offers something for everyone. IMO everyone has to do it all or at least be exposed to it all.

 

Nope. Pretty much tournament sparring. And pretty much one technique with a willing partner.

But that was my point about 'revisionist history'. We were part of Choi's organization (thankfully we left long before Sine Wave). He personally came and tested some of the senior ranks (one of which who won the northwest full-contact karate championship, btw, these guys were very good black-belts and mentors to me. I am not taking away from their personal skills).

Choi didn't jump up on the desk screaming, "Damn it! I want you to demonstrate your knowledge of free-flowing SD techniques. You guys suck. I'll come back in six months and test you again!!!" They all have their certificates. Well I know the one still around does the others are either long gone or have passed away. So I keep seeing this, "People ignoring Choi's mandate..." and I have to disagree. I don't know. Maybe he 'saw the light' after we left and totally changed things. We did leave the organization in the 80s,

And again, unlike PASmith, I am not criticizing this type of training. I felt it gave me a good base. Many people from our organization used it for self defense successfully. One of the guys above used to be a police officer and he always claimed it helped him there.

Like you the ones that really burn my blood are the ones who SHOULD know better. I can't tell you the number of times I've read someone say, "Ah man. TKD Sucks. I took it for 4 years and I do MT now. MT is the way I roll man."

Then in another thread they are going on and on about how powerful their leg kicks are. They have been doing MT for 3 weeks and, "My instructor is really impressed with my low kicks. I don't know how I learned them so quickly...he is an AMAZING teacher."

I just want to fricken shake them and say, "Oh I don't know? How about the fact that some poor instructor spent 4 years babysitting you and teaching you and being patient with you all so you could sit on the internet saying, "TKD SUCKS, and my new MT teacher taught me to kick real good in just a couple of weeks!!!!"

Does it hit a nerve? Yes, I think you can tell. And it isn't a personal thing, btw. I have always had a good relationship with former students (and I've never met one who said, "I just wasn't getting anything out of your class"). But when I see that crap posted and I can read the 'real' story between the lines I get a bit upset.

 

I hear ya Arron

 

Sorry, Stuart. I didn't mean to sound like a complete boob. It should've been common sense to me, given your screen name and the fact that there is an illustration of your book posted right there in your signature. Many people use the name of their favorite celebrity as their screen name these days, so I wasn't sure if it was the real Stuart Anslow, or just a big fan who was trying to pay homage to you. Anywho, it is great to talk to you!

 

:hail:A celeb!

 

LOL.. TBH, thats even funnier that the other post... in a chuckle sort of way (as in not taking the P). Seriously, I'm just me, doubt anyone would be using my name in that way unless they are a bit weird... anyhow... its great to talk with you as well.

Regards,

Stuart

 

LOL.. paypal me a tenner and Ill send you a signed photo...

... obviously my aide will do that for me

 

A sig in your book will do.

 

Is that the bottom of a badminton net above the two of you Time Bandits?