why is chi kung rubbish

What other methodology are you proposing, which can actually reach conclusions?

Name me one that isn't.

Name me one that isn't.

Knowing about a specialty does not make it real. My nephew knows a huge amount about Harry Potter - that doesn't make Harry Potter real.

 

Which research are you referring to that ascribes extrasensory perception to schizophrenics?

Nobody mentioned E-P. However, that is very telling about how your mind may work in and of itself. What I presented was the idea that a judgement based on Science does NOT preclude something being explained by another approach. This should start you off:


Schizophrenia Research Forum: Annotation
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www.schizophreniaforum.org/pap/annotation.asp?powID=133868
Schizophrenia Research Forum: Annotation
Linden SC, Harris M, Whitaker C, Healy D. Religion and psychosis: the effects of the Welsh religious revival in 1904-1905. Psychol Med . 2009 Nov 17 ; :1-7.
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Schizophrenia Research Forum: Annotation
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Schizophrenia Research Forum: Annotation
Gearing RE, Alonzo D, Smolak A, McHugh K, Harmon S, Baldwin S. Association of religion with delusions and hallucinations in the context of schizophrenia: ...
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clipped from Google - 7/2012Schizophrenia Research Forum: Annotation
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Schizophrenia Research Forum: Annotation
Peitl MV, Peitl V, Pavlovic E. Influence of religion on sexual self-perception and sexual satisfaction in patients suffering from schizophrenia and depression.
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clipped from Google - 7/2012Schizophrenia Research Forum: Annotation
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Borras L, Mohr S, Gillieron C, Brandt PY, Rieben I, Leclerc C, Huguelet P. Religion and Spirituality: How Clinicians in Quebec and Geneva Cope with the Issue ...
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Grobler C, Weiss EA, Lebelo E, Malerotho E. Culture, religion and psychosis - a case study from Limpopo Province, South Africa. Afr J Psychiatry (Johannesbg) .
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Annotation. Menezes A, Moreira-Almeida A. Religion, spirituality, and psychosis. Curr Psychiatry Rep . 2010 Jun ; 12(3):174-9. PubMed Abstract ...
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clipped from Google - 7/2012Schizophrenia Research Forum: Researcher Profile - Jennifer Nolan
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Schizophrenia Research Forum: Researcher Profile - Jennifer Nolan
I am particularly interested in the role that spiritual, religious and traditional beliefs and ... Conceptual distinctions in associations between religion and health.
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clipped from Google - 7/2012Schizophrenia Research Forum: Conference Calendar - CINP ...
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The opportunity to visit the numerous sites in Jerusalem of religious and historical significance to so many different religions and traditions is a major plus for all ...
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clipped from Google - 7/2012Schizophrenia Research Forum: SRF Papers
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Schizophrenia Research Forum: SRF Papers
Linden SC, Harris M, Whitaker C, Healy D. Religion and psychosis: the effects of the Welsh religious revival in 1904-1905. Psychol Med. 2009 Nov 17;:1-7.
www.schizophreniaforum.org
www.schizophreniaforum.org/.../powsearch.asp?...

clipped from Google - 7/2012Criteria For The Risk Syndrome For First Psychosis
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Criteria For The Risk Syndrome For First Psychosis
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nihilism), overvalued beliefs (about philosophy, religion, magic), or feeling loss of control over mental events (eg. thought insertion, broadcasting). When mildly ...
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Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

If it exists it can be tested, for existence if nothing else. If it cannot be tested, if it produces no actual effect, then it does not exist.

The dream is a firing of neurons producing the sensation of reality. It is not an objective reality any more than a hallucination is.

If it is a reality, then what is the effect it produces? What claims can be made about it that can be tested?

If there is no effect, there are no claims, then it is not reality.

...

Did you actually read these papers?

Did you take note of the fact that they were correlating schizophrenic episodes with religious conversion? There was nothing, nothing in there about extra perception. From the abstracts it looks like they're basically saying 'whipping people into a cultish frenzy can provoke psychotic episodes'.

So where are you getting the line about perception from?

 

True enough...except that when your nephew thinks or pictures "Harry Potter" in his mind that image is a reality. And Science cannot measure that reality. It can measure his body while he is thinking. It cannot measure the image that he has produced out of nothing.
Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

How so?

Maybe it's just that we disagree with what reality is. To clarify, I don't include dreams, hallucinations or similar as being solid reality. They are perceptile illusions.

Actually our work on the brain's processing of visual images is advancing rapidly. I'd imagine at some point in the next few decades it probably will be possible to decode the image from the brain activity.

 

As far as I'm concerned if it only "exists" in someone's head it's not reality. I don't think you're using the word reality correctly perhaps?
Something in someone's head being real sounds like something from "The Matrix".

 

I mean wiki has this line which is interesting...

Harry Potter is imaginary and in the mind. He is fictional. Not reality in other words.

 

Bunny...you are not reading what I wrote. Nobody said anything about E-P. What I will recap is that for a person who has an experience, your saying that it is not valid because of your adherence to a model does not invalidate that reality. I would not be so adamant about this except that this has been a huge source of controversey in the field of Psychology and Psychiatry for decades.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Gee....then I am left to wonder how Rowlings was able to convert something that does not exist into something that does. How exactly does that work? I am thinking of my dog up-stairs. Which dog is Reality? According to you and Bunny only one dog is real...... that is the one I can't see. But, oh, the one I CAN see, can hear, in my mind is NOT Real.

And a person whose nightmare induces cadiac arrest and takes his life.....not real?

What about the intrusive thought that causes an anxiety response.... not real?

A young child goes into hysterics at the thought of being locked in a closet.... not reality?

Ask a dog-lover to think of a box with puppies in it and NOT smile. Reality?

Seems that you have a very narrowly defined idea of what "reality" is. I would extend this to the guy who wrote that WIKI line. This is why I hold that we operate under a "tyrrany" of Science. A Physicists concepts of an unmeasurable Reality are valid while those of a Shaman are not. And you don't view this as even a Little arrogant?

 

Bruce, having a thought is reality, the content of the thought isn't.

A picture of a fish or a thought of a fish isn't a fish.

K?

 

And then you will be able to play with THAT decoding. You will not be able to measure the experience itself. In like manner, you cannot measure Emotions, either. You can measure the physical attributes of Emotions but the Emotions themselves are an internal experience. But....since they are a reality that cannot be measured according to your methodology I suppose we will have to inform the Human Race that their feelings are not Real. Shame. I think most of the Human Race thought they were. Pity to know Emotions are just unmeasurable hallucinations. BTW: Take a moment out and measure that thought I just had, would you? Maybe it was just an "illusion". Which leaves me wondering how something can have a label and NOT be a Reality? Help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

She didn't. She wrote a work of fiction. It doesn't call into reality anything she wrote about.

I can't tell if you're being deliberately obtuse, or are just incapable of grasping the point. The dog is real. Your perceptions of it are perceptions of reality. Your imagined picture of it in your head is not reality.

If you're actually hearing the dog barking, then yes, it's real. If you're just imagining it barking then no, it's not real. This really isn't difficult to grasp you know.

The cardiac arrest is real. The strain brought on by a panic reaction to a dream is real. The dream itself is not real. There is no monster in his dream with a genuine existence which decides to stop his heart.

It is a real thought. Whatever it is of, however, is not real - it is a thought.

Science doesn't need capitalisation. Physicist doesn't need capitalisation. Reality doesn't need capitalisation. Shaman doesn't need capitalisation. Little doesn't need capitalisation.

And no, I don't. I'm not the one claiming to know what reality is, and to hold it in my head. I'm simply saying that if you can't observe it, measure it and test its effects, it doesn't exist.

 

Are you a member the Insane Clown Posse Bruce?
I mean magnets...how do they work!?!?!*

*It's a meme.

 

Actually we will likely, at some point, have the hardware to run a simulation of a human mind. So yes, we will be able to measure the experience itself.

Emotions doesn't need capitalisation.

And people's reactions to emotional stimuli can be assessed and measured. The strength of those stimuli can be assessed and measured. There is nothing mysterious going on here.

Of course they can be. They produce genuine effects, reliably.

Human race doesn't need capitalisation. Real doesn't need capitalisation. Human race doesn't need capitalisation. It really doesn't add weight to your argument, in fact it detracts from it quite heavily.

Let me fetch the electron microscope.

 

Bruce, do you belief everything you think is true?

Brains think, that's what they do. They often fire off random nonsensical and even conflicting thoughts.

Those thoughts are real, they can be traced in the brain. The contents of the thoughts are not real, they are constructs of the brain. It is a simple as that.

 

I can't believe Bruce is hinging his argument on wether or not Harry Potter is real.

 

Geez I go for a haircut and two more pages get filled out!!

Mate I can tell your getting a bit heated at the moment. I apologize for this.


Science isn't only about measuring. Saddly science is very complex and different hypothesis require different tests and different data. From my profession I can give a simple explanation.

If you think that knocking out a certain gene can influence the shape of a cell, then there is nothing to measure, only observations can be made. However if you want to determine which genes are being expressed and to what extent, then that's something that you can measure.

So we don't really measure emotions, we observe them. There is the psychological aspect; which explains behaviour, sort of the exterior aspects. Then there's neurosciences (not my area of specialty tbh) which looks at the what the brain is doing on a cellular level. These studies merely allow us to observe what's going on under a certain emotional state. No measurements can be taken from this really. But this is sufficient for us to draw conclusions.

The problem with biology though, is that you can have two animals which are practically identical in every way, yet get two completely different results from a particular test. Genetic variance is really annoying, and then there is epi-genetics.... But this is the main reason for statistics in bio studies, but also other sciences.


Not an attack, but you should really revise your definition of science. A lot of people have said this already though.

 

Sorry....no... Mike. Its NOT that simple. I wish it were. And what is being over-looked is that Humans are indoctrinated (acculturated) to a particular way of assessing things. Later judgements are based on those assessments.
Bunny is only an extreme example of the premise.

Things that are experienced are Realities. They just are. I can't quantify or measure or even transcend those Realities. They are states, or perception or something only understood by their absence. They are still real.

Bunny is happy to draw the line where measurement stops. Good for him. Nothing wrong with that. However, a dream IS an experience making it a Reality for the person who has the experience....its just not something that Bunny's Science can measure. I think it is the height of folly to suggest that something that is NOT experienced but suggested only by Probability is a Reality (IE Quantum Particles) while an image that induces a heart attack is not.

As far as the fish....well the image of the Asian Carp that I have in my mind right this second is a historical file from a news program from last night. No you cannot eat the fish in my head. It cannot be measured by Bunny's Science. However, I am experiencing that image making it Real. Emotions are a Reality, as are hallucinations, altered states of Consciousness, Hope and Love. You can measure the impact these things have but you cannot measure the thing itself. That does not make it "not Real". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Okay, I'm not done arguing but it's pub time and I can't face writing another essay while beer is calling me.

However can I just ask what benefit any of your navel gazing here does? Does it produce anything worthwhile? Does it improve anyone's life? Or does it just allow you to capitalise words at random and delude yourself into believing that you're being profound?

 

YOU may not be able to, but that doesn't mean that there aren't ways to.