ACE! you experienced a real life kungfu school throw down: did they speak in dub by any chance? shame there aren't more schools that would step up to the challenge like this. (probably because many would take a beating)
Although sometimes Gong_Sau_Rick and I have displayed very different points of view on Wing Chun related subjects this is an occasion that we appear to be on the same page. The number of poor quality schools in most styles of martial arts often give a bad impression of the art form. That seems to happen a great deal with both Karate and Taekwondo from what my older brother claims and could be that Gong_Sau_Rick is correct about Wing Chun having the same problem there. Back in the days of JKD there were some of my class-mates that had very solid backgrounds in Wing Chun. To be honest I was suprised to find that much negative press about the style here on MAP and other martial arts based websites. Because the JKD class-mates that I was refering to seemed quite formidable with thier Wing Chun material. The major weakness never was a reflection of poor conditioning or lack of understanding what the art form was about there. The only glaring problem seemed to me and them by own admission was dealing with grapplers. Still the efforts made at stand-up were impressive from what I have seen of Wing Chun before. The reason for Wing Chun being hated on that much appears to be related to both the poor quality of some places that teach as much and when students won't be objective about the strengths and weaknesses of the art form. There's no such of thing as one style having all the bases covered and the suggestion there is seems to get Wing Chun students into a lot of criticism by other MAPers.
I think it's just that Wing Chun is hyped up so much as this great system, being the cream of the crop of CMAs; and then as I said before there's been this rapid growth and lack of quality control that has made the typical school... well lame. They can't deliver on the claims of their marketing campaign. And especially note that the bulk of WC is taught by the large WC empires that just are quite simply about making an empire! It makes me sick to my stomach. WC dojo storming tonight!
I’d probably have to blow the whistle and call foul on this notion. WC was getting major flack way before grappling awareness became mainstream. It’s almost always been known for being a fairly weak system. And, not simply due to Bruce’s own famous abandonment of it, but with its competition against other stand up arts as well. Namely Boxing, Kyokushin and Muay Thai, for example. The advent of grappling becoming a household ideal has only made WC appear even weaker practically. Especially with even more bloated claims of being this complete and adaptive “system”, for in really, it isn’t. As far as conditioning is concerned, I can’t say I’ve ever met a conditioned WC player. Maybe strong, but not ever as conditioned as your regular Boxer / Muay Thai guy normally. That’s not to say that they don’t exist, but they appear to be very far and few between.
When did grappling achieve the "awareness mainstream" there? From what I gather it was'nt a secret that grappling was quite effective prior to early UFC events. Knew about the advantages of wrestling a long time before I ever heard of Wing Chun or saw any MMA fights. Granted there were martial arts instructors and students downplaying wrestling until it was proven in the sportfighting events and thier pet arts were not. Yet I think most open-minded students of martial arts knew that Judo for example was quite a handfull during sparring. Just can't buy into that whole theory of grappling only recently being realized for it's potential. Back in a prior reply I mentioned those wild claims made by some Wing Chun students. And how it often comes back to haunt them later. Being fair I sometimes hear or read some questionable claims from students of any number of styles. The argument for something being complete and adaptive usually isn't accepted reguardless of style. Not sure how to respond to you never having met a well conditioned student of Wing Chun. Maybe using a variety of training methods and learning other styles was responsible for our having some conditioned students that used Wing Chun technique? Or it could have been thier prior school was among the better Wing Chun schools. What I know for sure is the students in question were conditioned and used Wing Chun material to an extent quite effectively during class. Maybe they were an exception there?
It isn't a "theory" that grappling has achieved mainstream status. When you start seeing MAs that had zero grappling associations previously--now suddenly claim that they either have it all along within their system (i.e. BS) or have anti-grappling (even worse), then you know right then and there that the mainstream status has been achieved. I didn't say that knowledge of grappling was a secret. I said that it became mainstream due to MMA. Most MAs didn't even think of incorporating it into their curriculum unless their art was based around it.
even though i practise wing chun and love it alot. but personally my training regime still mainly consist of traditional kung fu and kickboxing skills. as obviously im not the wing chun is the deadliest person, many ppl ive known previously enrolled in wing chun got out cos they including me are really sick of the wing chun politics. to be honest, i have met high ranking wing chun ppl but i wonder if they ever will stand up in a real fight when they hold to wing chun's ideals so dearly. well maybe if they were the deadliest in the first place and they could adhere to the wing chun way. Many times we have seen on youtube, wing chun fighting is like a slapfest. So, really ppl i have yet to witness or see a believable wing chun fight and not just a bunch of choreographed movements. maybe someone can bring some hope back into wing chun, please anybody?
This thread is funny. Wing Chun isn't pretentious. People are pretentious. True command of WC skills is developed both internally and externally. Primarily internally. The Psycho-sematics of combat demand that skills are "absorbed" to an internal level of natural reaction, with no time for considerations of technique. A lack of proper application by a WC person does not reflect on the art itself, but in the persons commitment to learn and WORK put into it (and instruction quality, physical limitations, etc). It is the same with any martial art, as I've seen many perfect examples of this. And just for the sake of it.. Bruce Lee didn't ever say he didn't like wing chun, he said he wished to escape the "classical mess" ....the politics of the system and all martial arts at that time. (this kind of discussion of merit is exactly that) Instead of being railed into a system he could never change, or be grandmaster of in spite of his skills, he chose to create his own personal expression with the art. He refused to be closed minded. I would hope that we can all be the same.
Agreed bruce lee him self said he dosent belive in styles. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/23744/bruce_lee_lost_interview/ but then again we got these kind of wc masters [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nfgN5MZpYM&feature=related"]wing tsun gran master - YouTube[/ame]
Oh God, please with this end of the delusional stick, okay. Not all styles are created equal, regardless of what some people attempt to happily claim in an effort to keep the peace or avoid some type of conflict on the matter. You can’t build a house with a dish rag; you need the right tools to get the job done. “Martial” arts (and I use the term loosely here) like WC fail to prove that they provide the tools to become a competent fighter. The concepts are nice on paper, but whenever the time comes to prove these practitioners are worth their words, either excuses come about at every turn, or they simply get embarrassed by more proven arts (ala Muay Thai, or Kyokushin for example). So no, not all martial arts are created equal and not all of them are useful. I’ve had to get out of this delusion myself years ago just as well; complacency doesn’t help with coming to grips with reality either. It is not the fault of every practitioner if the martial art in question fails them every time. If the person dedicates themselves to said craft and the results still fail them, then something is wrong with the supposed tool set and methods that he/she is working with. Year after year there have been dozens upon dozens of international competitions where WC players have participated. From the first open world Karate tournaments in Japan, to early NHB of the 90’s and MMA of today. The martial art and its supporting practitioners have proven time and time again that the style’s theories don’t live up to reality regardless of the venue. And, it doesn’t help that a large majority of their population are smug about their art and the all things surrounding it. The only smidge of proof lies within tales of rooftop battles and lei tai matches among other CMAists. But, what comes into question is the competency of each person involved. Sure, an entire group of retards can get into a fight and someone will win, but you’re still a fool at the end of the day. It doesn’t prove anything other than you’re both poor at fighting and someone eventually will come out the victor. You cannot logically say that it’s not a martial art’s fault for failing if the people don’t learn it well. Really, how many years are we going to hear this poor excuse? The proof of strong tools are also in how well you can use them even IF you’re a novice of some sort (Boxing, for instance, where a person can become competent in fighting within a mere matter of months, while using all of the same concepts that WC supposedly provides and more). The people within the community of that martial art in question are the ones who pass it on and keep it alive. It doesn’t exist on its own. Bottom line: if there are a large majority of people who generally suck at a specific martial art’s point to be proven, chances are, the art itself sucks just as bad. It’s a reflection of the people involved within it. Stop making excuses already. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results -Albert Einstein
If you want to put it that way alright but dont just blame it all on wing chun. At least wing chun guys stepped into ufc what other styles of kung fu did that? wc guys are starting to do good in nhb thats a good start . Thai boxers and kk guys train the hardest physically show me a wing chun school that trains at that level? none. The problem is not with the style its self but by its outdated tranning methods lack of hard conditioning and hard sparring. Wc guys wont be doing good in events like ufc untill they start tranning hard like thai boxers and kk guys. You dont see kung fu guys in ufc because they know they will lose they dont train on the same level and thats a fact. Once kung fu as a whole not just wing chun steps up in tranning to the level of the modern combat thats then they will be able to compete with them. Most kung fu guys dont even care about ufc type stuff they just want to learn how to defend if attacked by someone and thats the mindset of almost every style of kung fu.
This is probably the smartest reply I've ever seen you post. The problem however is that most CMAists try to distinguish what happens in the ring from what they consider "real fighting". When in all actuality, there isn't a serious difference at all. Only rules to keep the competitors safer. It's an old tired excuse that was dead in the water back in the famous Vale Tudo and NHB days of the 80's and 90's, where there WEREN'T any rules. A lot of these guys have been sitting on this excuse for far, FAR too long. Okay, that's great---some WC guys have given fighting in the ring a go, even with failure. Now that's it's been said and done, can they improve already?!!
Can they improve sure they can but whos there to push them to it? the great master william cheung? leung ting? moy yat? Im not saying thier bad masters they sure got skills but they dont train their people as hard as the top fighting systems of today. One of the reasons i left wc my self is because they dont train hard enough we did sparring too but it wasent full contact and not hard enugh in my eyes so once i learnt all the hand techniques and legs and stuff(didint feel like staying to learn weapons) i left why pay $60 a month when i could train alot harder for free with friends to be my sparring partners. At least emin is tranning some bigger guys http://youtube.com/watch?v=IBE3EB59o9w&feature=related he actually encourges them to work out and get buff. Now here is leung ting http://youtube.com/watch?v=LCHgqtskaN8 saying that big muscles are not needed look at his students their all small guys he dosent push them to train and workout their bodies. They cant compete with systems like kyokushin where they beat the crap outa your body on daily basis to learn to withstand pain. Wing chun and kung fu in general might regain its respect when they actually step up to the western world where guys get as big as possible and train as hard as possible. Some schools of wing chun are going the right way by adding grappling in their system but they still need to match the work outs of thai boxers and kyokushin guys to compete at their level. Maybe they dont train as hard since its suppsibly a female martial art and its suppose to be soft so a girl could use it. What girls would wanna do wing chun if they did what kyokushin guys do 0. Wing chun needs to brake apart from this female stuff and start tranning hardcore they should make seprate classes for each gender.
