Don't be sad buckaroo !!!!!!!! The WKSA is just fine. The organization is stronger than ever and expanding. There are not many glitches in the association now that we are franchised. It's just wishful thinking on the part of the haters that the Won is going away. It's sad and pitiful that they can't let go of their predjudice, but nobody is listening to them anymore. You don't have credibility when you neither accomplish anything yourself OR your only solution is to Bitch all the time. It's too bad they have nothing in their own lives worth spending their time on. Without the Won to whine about, they would have no purpose in life.
Thanks, Obe, as I had a real problem with this statement: "The ART of Kuk Sool is really something else...it's the WON that needs to be done away with." There's no need to do away with anything or anyone. You see, I feel that there's enough room for everyone to play in the sandbox (plus, it's what I always heard KukSaNim say WRT the old korean masters who left to start their own association). Live and let live. EDIT: Dragonkarma's post wasn't visible to me when I made the above reply to Obewan, so-o-o-o... FWIW, Dragonkarma, I think Hyeongsa wasn't whining about the WKSA per se, but merely used a poor choice of words when trying to communicate that he's fed up with all the politics that manage to creep into one's enjoyment of MA. I'm sure he's glad (as am I) that the corporate entity which provides the Suh clan with such a decent income is flourishing. Besides, I'm pretty sure that Hyeongsa isn't sitting around twiddling his thumbs, as if he doesn't have things to accomplish. And sometimes it takes a while to nourish planted seeds, allowing them to grow and blossom, before there's anything worth trying to harvest. So that old saying about "patience & perseverance" ought to be factored into the equation as well.
yes yes yes..... Kuk Sool Won is doing just fine...I mean, there are no instructors that are leaving the Won for competing organization like say.... Mu Sool Won. Oh wait, instructors ARE leaving the Won and moving to other organizations.......yes they are. Poor poor Dragonkarma.............so isolated.......so uneducated........so naive. I relish in the thought of Master Lee up in North Austin pulling more and more of your students........ I mean really, it's so entertaining to hear you deny and deny the very thought that instructors are not happy with the Won.....and then have them leave! hahahahahahahaha
Dead right Obe. For some, the comfort and comradeship of the WON is just what they need and outweighs the downsides of membership. For others, who want to explore a wider spectrum of MA and give their students a more complete experience, there is no choice but to leave. It's either that or flout the regulations of the org they belong to, which IMO is both dishonest and disrespectful to the Suh family and the WON. As for wishful thinking DK, I just wish that everyone would get on with training in whatever org they choose and let others do the same.
Opinions are like a$$holes: everyone’s got one and they all stink. None of you have to like my opinion, but that doesn't mean I don't have it! ^^ Though I may not agree with everyone on here, that does not mean I don't like any of you OR that I don't want to hear your opinion. I enjoy hearing from those that are prospering and are loyal to the WKSA or those that are beyond bitter or just honestly don't care. You can always learn something new. There's no such thing as a bad opinion, just a bad listener...maybe that doesn't come out clear. Eh. LOL KUK SOOL is an amazing art. It is. The fact is that the WKSA puts business first, and by the WON I mean the business side. If Kuk Sool WON put the WON away (the hardcore business nature that it has developed), it'd be just fine. There really is no place for hardcore business in martial arts. As for the WKSA being just fine, that’s wonderful. But no one really cares. Those that are out of the WKSA talk about what they remember because it was part of their life. Do I wish I was still in the WKSA? HELL NO. The fact that they put business and who pulls down the most cash before loyalty means the WON has lost its true meaning as a martial arts. They can go on to prosper and yada yada yada...but without me or the people that are leaving or those that have left already. Little history about me: I was screwed over by the WKSA and by the very people that are suppose to represent honor, humility, justice, blah blah blah. The only way out of my situation was to screw over people myself, and I wasn't going to do that. My master (at least I figured at the time that’s what he was) did little to nothing except cover himself. So don’t' tell me how I'm suppose to feel about the WKSA or the people in it; I was very loyal and wasn't given a shred of mercy and the fact I still wish them prosperity and good fortune should show how nice I'm being. And your right...people are staying. The SCHOOL OWNERS are staying. Some stay due to the franchise and others by choice. When its time for re-newel, you'll probably see allot of new schools with Mu Sool Won, NKMAA, Kuk Sool of California, or just Kuk Sool Of schools out there. But, lets just be "optimistic" and say they all stay! But more and more color belts and black belts leave for Mu Sool Won, NKMAA, etc. How do you run an association with 500 schools/school owners but with black belts and color belts dropping out continuously for "break off" schools? It's the students that make up Kuk Sool Won, not the school owners. No students + no dedicated black belts = no schools/no WKSA. In Texas, the Kuk Sool Won black belt (non-school owner) and color belt drop out rate for Mu Sool Won schools, Kuk Sool of Schools, and other ARTS entirely is horrific. Maybe, just maybe, there's something wrong with that picture? And you’re wrong! I am TOTALLY sitting around scheming how to destroy the WKSA Empire! MWA HA HA HA HA!....God, are you "WONers" that presumptuous and arrogant to think that I could give a rats ass about what the WKSA is doing right now? To me, the WKSA is as foreign and as un-familiar as the ITF, WTF, AKF, or any of the thousands of martial arts associations in existence. I do wish the WKSA, and anyone with them, the best of luck but I don't really care. My opinion still stands: If the WON was taken out of the Kuk Sool WON, then I believe they would get in touch with their roots and remember WHY they did all this in the first place...to spread an amazing art on a global scale, for the sake of spreading the art.
Hello Hyeongsa. Like you said everyone has one and your opinion is what it is. So why be so negative. You know the reasons "Why" the system works the way it does and if you really do not care why keep harping on about the WKSA and your EX-Master. Seems to me you proclaim one thing and do another kind of like talking out of both sides of your mouth. You might be in it for the students but the money sure comes in handy for the rent etc... and like you say I hope that your association does good. The main thing that you do is you keep reiterateing (I hope that is a word) the same material over and over with nothing new to add.D2
Hyeongsa, I know that you have been treated quite badly in the past. But that is where it is. In the past. Sometimes you have to let things go and I know myself that this is not easy. Most of those in the WKSA are quite happy there and that is a good thing. Personally, despite some of my previous posts (rants?) on this forum, I do not feel that I was treated particularly badly, I just did not understand the culture of the WON and did not agree with its policies. Now I think I understand it better and I am happy that I have separated but I am also happy for those who want to stay within the comfort of the org. There is a time for everything, and for them it is time to stay. As for the rate at which students leave that is a serious point throughout the MA, not just in particular orgs. I was horrified recently when I discovered that I had "lost" the equivalent of 50% of my students during the previous 12 months. HOWEVER, I then found out that the average MA school loses 100% every SIX MONTHS! That means that we are doing four times better than average, which is good, but not good enough IMO. But we do need to realise that for the vast majority of students, MA is just a hobby. They are not warriors or generals in the making, just guys and girls who enjoy this activity. And if the average student in my school lasts 2 years, then, considering that around 65% of them are kids, compared to many activities they could choose from, that is pretty damn good! And yes there is a high drop of at BB level. Maybe its because for most, achieving a BB seems like a major achievement, which of course it is. Second dahn, 3rd dahn etc do not hold the same appeal. I remember my instructor saying to me, when I received my yellow belt that the next time a promotion would feel that good would be 1st dahn, and he was right. And the next time it felt as good as 1st dahn was not until 5th dahn! When I started training in MA believe it or not I didn't even know whether a 1st dahn was a higher or lower rank than a 2nd dahn! Therefore, for the average student there is not the same sense of achievement perhaps to get to 2nd dahn etc. After all, who can tell the difference between a 1st and 2nd dahn, unless you know the syllabus? I stayed because I had opened a school at 1st dahn and wanted to keep ahead of my students. And I opened the school to give me motivation to stay and to keep training. Most people don't want that and so it is harder to hang on to them. But I would be very interested in anything that anyone has to say on the matter of how to improve retention, as keeping existing students is far better than finding new ones as it leaves more time for training! So how about a discussion about why people STAY somewhere instead of why they leave?
Thanks KI, I know this is your opinion, but I just want to clarify my position. First I would like to say that the "comradeship" is a fare statement of the organization, "comfort", however has never been part of the program, AFAIK, LOL. Regards
"So how about a discussion about why people STAY somewhere instead of why they leave? " If you want to identify how to improve retention, then that would be the wrong question to ask. Someone who leaves has made a conscious decision to exit. Someone who stays is someone who simply has not made the decision yet: potentially they are a leaver waiting to happen You HAVE to identify those factors which induced those students to leave. Trying to identify what makes people stay is a dead end: they may leave tomorrow. However, my belief is that once you take out the "external" considerations such as cost, relocation, pressure of work, then the biggest single cause is a breakdown of trust (or maybe of respect) between master and pupil. Or maybe between master and pupil's parent. something else that needs saying: I believe there is a general misunderstanding of why the drop-out rate immediately after the 1st BB is so high. Its nothing to do with 1st dahn being a "natural break" or a "target of achievement". Its all to do with cost / benefit analysis. Its the point at which someone who is disillusioned with school (or teacher) can exit while actually retaining something quantifiable for the money they've spent. Leave earlier and effectively everything is lost. This is especially true of children, whose parents would resent them leaving earlier having spent all that money on -ultimately- nothing. The habit of collecting the BB testing fee two years before the event is a big decider here. It really does alienate parents, who see it as blackmail. They either pull the kids out at that point, or else pay it, insist the kids stay until the belt is awarded, and then pull them out vowing never to get caught that way again. To the parents the master/school/won (take your pick depending on the school) comes across as a money-grabbing rip--off artist. It doesn't help that the structure of Kuk Sool makes it noticeably poor value-for-money compare with other sports - or even other martial arts. For instance the local municipal sports hall runs kickboxing and TKD sessions, which work out (for kids) around £3 / session. Compare that with the the minimum for a KS school which is going to be around £30-40/month and parents become reluctant. I realise that the two may not be comparable: the KSW school may have its own building and the sessions at the municipal hall are probably run by volunteers rather than someone doing it for a living. However a parent won't notice those subtleties: its a case of how many hours training for the cash. And then you have boxing sessions run by the local charitable-status "Boys Club" which - as I understand it - are free
Hehe, I'm sure you meant to say "fair" rather than "fare" but it is amusing to think that maybe the WKSA would charge money for the comradeship you mentioned, if they could. :banana: :jester:
Sorry, but I must strongly disagree. The amount has little or nothing to do with it, though I will agree that cost/benefit factors in as I mentioned in another post. The single most influencial factor is little more than "priorities". People will spend money on one thing versus another because they have been emotionally titilated by the former over the latter. Further, people will leave when they are seduced---emotionally--- from one thing to another. You folks are looking for an intellectual answer concerning something for which the solution is primarily emotional. And when a person is emotionally overcome by something else or they mature enough to sort out what they actually want they will leave. People will grow out of things, their priorities will change, they will become bored, find something thats more interesting or rewarding------ and noone really knows how or why all this stuff happens. Now, sure.... you can guilt-trip, cajole, threaten, beg, weedle, harangue and brow-beat folks into staying. But there comes a time when intimidation and seduction simply don't work, The fact is that damn few people will continue independent of price, location or material. Its just people being what they are: people. They're not bad or evil or damaged; they're just people being people. Best Wishes, Bruce
The "leaving the Won" thing is an individual's choice, and no amount of ranting on either side will change the mind of those who choose to stay or leave. We ALL had good reasons for making the choice, whichever way that choice went. It is a useless discussion; and, after looking at KIs post, it would be far more fruitful to discuss student retention instead of trying to make fellow Mappers to "see it our way". Rudy
In true Combat Sports, such as: Boxing, Savate, MMA, etc., I would say that if someone has not found their niche after about 3 years, they'll usually leave. That niche could be as a competitor, official or a coach. In traditional martial arts, such as Kuk Sool, a lot of people set their sights on becoming a black belt. So a cleverly thought-out programme might just extend that time period of 3 years to 4 or 5 perhaps. Having achieved black belt, some may find that they enjoy teaching (their niche in TMA), and so may continue for longer. When people leave one organisation for another, it's usually due to the politics or the B*llsh*t!
if i could add that relationships are a key component to student and instructor retention. a weon, yeon meng, hyeop hoe, etc. can only survive as long as the relationships are strong. much like muscles, the strength dissolves without nurturing.
I would agree with your observation, S-K, but I also need to respect the fact people are known to **** on decent relationships for no other reason than whim. This is true, regardless of the nature of the relationship be it teacher-student, business partners, or even man and wife. People are fickle and always want what they can't or don't have. Give them the thing they want and they immediately switch to something else. Look.... you agree that at its core, MA are truly an art, right? If so, then let's take an art as an example. For instance... how many people dance or play an instrument or doodle. OK....now of those thousands of people, how many focus almost exclusively on said dance or instrument or drawing with a significant portion of their disposable time? OK.... now of those thousands of people how many actually make a living out of what they are doing....and how many simply drop what they are doing and move to something else? Think I'm finished? Nope. One more group. Of all the people I have mentioned...how many privately pursue their passion...unidentified and unrewarded for their solitary journey? Damn few, my friend, and THESE are the scant population of dedicated seekers that everyone says they are....that all organizations say they represent....and all arts say they are about. Inna pig's eye! A little while ago, Master Timmerman agreed to take me into the NKMAA ---for which, I am sure Gawd will forgive him great numbers of past infractions for his penance in giving me a place to light. I believe that Master Timmerman's model will be proven historically, as he seeks only to provide a crossroads where individual seekers can sidle-up to like-minded seekers without fear of contention. In this way, there is no turning from, or turning to.....only a matter of having a site where people can compare notes. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
Students come to me of their own free will and, eventually, they leave of their own free will. I am at peace.
Tesco's new slogan: 'Customers come to us of their own free will and, eventually, they leave of their own free will.' Hmmm, not sure if that's a good marketing strategy
True. I'm probably the last person anyone should ever hire to work in their marketing or sales department. But then, as a martial artist, I cannot be bought or sold. Martial art for me is not something that can be purchased. So, I make no attempt to "market" it at all.
Couple this statement by Pugil with what Bruce mentioned about people pursuing MA as a *hobby* and you immediately understand where KSW/WKSA has chosen to go with their marketing scheme. There was a time when KSW was trying to make its way in the world as well as a name for itself, so that the MA it represented would be easily recognized in the same way that TKD was. Back then, the format for classes was 1½ to 2 hours long, 4 or 5 days a week. Even if missing a day or two per week, it would still give you much more time on the mat than current trends of one hour or less, twice weekly. But the idea was to attract die-hard/hard-core MAists that could help forge ahead into the consciousness of the public. Only with an elite corps could people be expected to look up to what was being presented. Now that the comfort level for the number of schools has been achieved, the focus seems to have shifted towards getting more clientele (IOW, quantity over quality). Thus, by making it more appealing to the "average joe" in terms of time invested and other such parameters, you end up with what many of those original die-hards consider to be the dilution of the art (aka: watered down/dumbed down). This to me is the most obvious reason for *masters* leaving the Won (they'd prefer to see more of the old days/old ways). BTW, Bruce, I liked your statement about how few MAists fall into the category of "privately pursuing their passion...unidentified and unrewarded for their solitary journey."
