I’ve been thinking about this question for a while now, especially since I first read the franchise thread. The comments I received after my post, have made the question started to ring in my head again: why do masters leave the won? It is very well known that GM IHS studied, learned, organized and finally created the martial art system known as KSW. He taught several students back then. Consequently, those students became teachers and finally Masters, the Masters we know today. Some of the “original” students of GM IHS left before the won was organized, some have passed away (as a natural course of life), but some followed KSN and helped him to develop KSW around the world. We all know that GM IHS is like a ceiling that covers us as in a big house; the high level masters are the walls of this big house that is KSW; however I think that in recent years, those “walls” have holes. As I said before some masters have passed away and some others have retired because of age or health. But what is happening amongst those active masters that are considering leaving? Or what did happen to those masters who already left the won? What is happening on the top of our “house”? Who is creating this situation? I said in my post, in the above mentioned thread, that the franchise is a good reason for disagreement and therefore for leaving the organization. But I think that there is something more going on. This thread has the purpose of sharing ideas with you. I do not intend to show disrespect towards KSWA or GM IHS or anyone else. Simply I want to know what other Kuk Sool practitioners, whether students, instructors, teachers or even Masters think about the subject. Cheers
My thoughts… After being in the U.S. Marines for 12 years, I am no longer willing to give up my "freedoms" so easily. Not that being in the Marines was bad (I loved it!), but simply to use that as an example of "control". As a Marine, you are OWNED by the U.S. Government. You are property. You basically can’t even take a “poop” without someone knowing about it and then questioning the manner in which you wiped your ****! I believe many Masters are getting tired of the politics, money grubbing, and BS! I also know many of them are NOT being trained (advanced)…and now, they are asked to voluntarily begin relinquishing control of their schools? Right. Every individual person, albeit student, instructor, teacher, master, school owner or the combination of, has their unique reason for leaving the Association. I simply followed my teacher. I look at it like this…it’s a club…and I don’t have to be “part” of the club to train, practice, teach or love Kuk Sool. The brother and sisterhood of any organization is cool, but do we really need it? Do you have to be part of the club to be a martial artist…I think not. I know I don’t measure the quality of my “self” based on what clubs I belong to…and as of now, I think I belong to Vons Club, Albertsons Club, Blockbuster Video Rewards Club and a couple others… You can’t limit the freedoms of Americans. I can’t tell you, you CAN’T train at another Kuk Sool School…you are a human person and a citizen of a country based on a democratic society which wrote some stuff on a piece of paper that says you can basically do whatever the heck you want! (As long as you don’t break the law). So, you go train somewhere else, I find out, then kick you out of the club…okay. Boohoo…you are no longer able to train with us…bad boy! It’s all about MONEY! By the way, I don’t care whether you come from the Won, the Kwan, or from across the pond. If you ever visit San Diego, CA. and want to come by my Dojang to get some training in…come on over! I’ll keep it a secret so you don’t get thrown out!
Yes. I believe I said something along a similar vein on another thread here on MAP not too long ago. RIGHT! But with all due respect, you are ALREADY out of the WON, so what you do is of no consequence to anyone but yourself. And like you said, as long as people keep QUIET about (the evil) "cross-training" that's supposedly TABOO for any members of WKSA, no one risks losing any status or rank within that esteemed organization. But there's currently much MORE at stake than getting one's "hand slapped" for such minor infractions (I'm sure this thread is a "spillover" from the Franchise thread). Absolutely not. But if I had my "druthers" I'd choose to have both. Happy (hard/challenging) training AND convivial camaraderie, especially with people who share similar goals as far as MA are concerned. Plus, sometimes it's nice to "drop in" on fellow MAists who share a common bond when traveling, or else you wouldn't have extended the invitation that you did. Right? EDIT: I almost forgot to ask... Which manual was it that covered how a Marine should properly wipe his/her @ss? I don't recall seeing it in the BDR or other Marine Corps Common Skills.
How a Marine should wipe? Front to Back it they are women! My neice told me this bit of info when she was three!
This might be an alternate way to think of things. When I was in 3rd Grade we were being taught the multiplication tables and I am guessing that most people would consider it weird if I still had to call my 3rd Grade teacher to ask about one product or another, right? I think its the same with the MA where people are expected to reach a point where the teacher has been successful in educating the student how to find answers to questions for themselves. The problem is that noone ever helps students and teachers to come to a reconciliation about what their relationship will be when it is no longer one of "top dog" (teacher) and "underdog" (student). I think this also needs to be taught. Otherwise the only alternative is for the student to leave and make a clean split of it. Certainly by now we should be able to come up with a better alternative, right? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
BDR? Were you a HAT? Oh, and yeah, of course this is all spillover, but since the questions were asked... It just gets a little too ridiculous, ya know. One day...one day it will be like TKD. So many different Kuk Sool schools, organizations, clubs ,etc...and we will all end up meeting at a United-Kuk Sool-World Championship Tournament! Maybe in San Diego...
United Kuk Sool Word Championship Tournament... United Kuk Sool Word Championship Tournament... Keep an eye out for this...maybe in about 4 or 5 years...
Dear Unknown-KJN, Thank you for your comments. But I have to disagree with you in one point: this is not a spillover the franchise thread. This question is a consequence of the franchise issue. The franchise has brought to the attention of the students (at least those that have concerns about it) the problems that have leaked from the top Management of the organization.
Wise comment Bruce... It is an interesting point of view. But I'm not sure if that applies to Asian cultures (in this case Korean), where students do not question their masters. I've learnt that Asian cultures have deep respect for their authority figures, this is why I find so striking the fact that some "original" students of KSN have left him.
Yes; I noticed in my visit to Korea that there was a very different sensitivity towards teachers-----and by extension from teachers towards students---- than what I have experienced in my own teaching career here in the States. Like it or not, here in the States a teacher is seen as more of a baby-sitter or "time-structurer". This is much of the reason that I teach only adults in MA and prefer High School and college for Social Studies. But there is another piece that crops up from a historical perspective. Reports are that Korean teachers (also Japanese and Chinese as well) were known to make appropriate referrals to other teachers for their students who had reached a point where they had achieved all they might with their first teacher. I think that its important for a given teacher to acknowlege that a single teacher or organization cannot presume to satisfy all goals for a given student, that mastery of the fundamentals will occur and that arrangements for the goals of the student must be addressed from that point moving forward. I will also mention that it has been my own personal experience that there are teachers who constantly contrive material so as to put-off the day where they will have to admit to themselves----and their student--- that they have taught all that they actually know about a given subject. IMVHO. Best Wishes, Bruce
Actually, if you were REALLY familiar with Korean culture, you'd know that *backstabbing* is quite common. I mean, wasn't GM IHS supposed to keep his family's MA traditions a secret? Instead, once dear old grandpa was cold & stiff, he went public with it as a means to "turn a buck" (this is provided you AGREE with the premise espoused by WKSA, that KSW is derived from the Suh Family traditional MA and merely supplemented with a *sprinkling* of stuff learned from other MA masters/books). And he's not the only one *guilty* of this (asian) faux pas. FWIW, I've heard that plenty of MA masters have eventually gone off on their own, or *stolen* stuff from others to create some *new* super-uber MA (especially Koreans). I didn't mean that this thread was SPECIFICALLY spilt over from the Franchise thread, just that by discussing certain things on the Franchise thread, topics would surface that deserve to be on their OWN thread, rather than derailing that one (although I'd say it DID get derailed once or twice). So disagree all you want but in a nutshell, I'd say I *nailed* it. Hell, I'm not even a JARHEAD. And maybe the *invitation list* will be drawn from the KSGA roster? I can hardly wait...
And though I mean no insult to the culture, Unknown, you bring up a bit that never ever seems to get talked about. In my own experience in the KMA I have found that when there is a breakdown in the teacher-student relationship the responsibility for that falling-out is always laid on the student. Neo-Confucian philosophy speaks to a reciprocity between teacher and student with the student supporting the teacher and the teacher nurturing the growth of the student. The usual report I have heard with fallings-out is that the teacher reports that such&such a student "did not appreciate" or was "disrespectful about" what the teacher had to offer. My own sword master once told me that it was common in Korea for sword teachers to refrain from promotions to 2nd and third DAN for as long as 15 years and only THEN begin to teach high technique. As a result there has been some sword material that has been lost for all time. If the students owe things to the teacher, when do we start hearing about teachers who live up to their responsibilities? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
Teachers' responsibility It is the responsibility of teachers to ensure that at least some of his/her students end up better than them - otherwise the system will eventually becomes worthless. As the legendary JKD/Kali Guro Dan Inosanto once said, "If you are secure in your knowledge, then let it out." By which, I took that to mean that good teachers should not hold back on teaching their students [the worthy ones at least] everything they know. After which they should encourage students to train with others who are able to provide them with even more knowledge and skills - and that can mean looking outside one's own system too!
Unknown, I'm not an expert in Korean culture, though I have many Korean friends and I find their culture (as well as Asian culture in general) fascinating. They have managed to maintain their traditions for thousands of years and despite all technology they still have their roots very deep in their soil. Having said that, as I’m a very meticulous person, I did an extra research from sources different from the official web site, about Kuk Sool and this is an extract of my findings: “… Among them was Myung Deuk Suh, In Hyuk Suh's grandfather and head martial arts instructor (underline is mine) to the Korean royal court before it was dissolved by the Japanese. Prior to 1910, the elder Suh taught three types of Korean martial arts…Despite the Japanese invasion, the Suh family continued its 16 generation tradition of practicing and teaching martial arts in extreme secrecy. In Hyuk Suh was chosen by his grandfather to carry on this family legacy” From the information available, I can’t find anything that leads me to think that Grandmaster has “backstabbed” his family tradition. KSN’s grandfather was an instructor to the Korean Royal Court; that means he taught people outside his family. And GM IHS just continued the 16 generation tradition regards,
Well..... I would need a whole lot more to go on, at least from the standpoint of scholarship. a.) Hendrick Hamel (1667) was already reporting that the palace guard was mainly comprised of Chinese. If the heritage actually goes back 16 generations (approx 480 years) that would take us back to about 1529. Its probably better if I use his words. "................ For the defense of the country there are several thousand soldiers in the capital, both cavalry and infantry. They are maintained by the king. Their duty is to protect the king and protect him if he goes out. Each province is obliged to send its free men, once every seven years, to the capital, to guard the palace of the king for two months; every two months another group and each year another province. Each province has a general with three or four colonels below him. Below each colonel are a number of captains who are the commanders of a city or stronghold. Each ward has a sergeant, each village a corporal, and at the head of each group of ten men is a private first class. All officers and non-commissioned officers have to keep records with the names of all of the men who fall under their command. These records are handed over to their superiors once a year. In this way the king knows how many soldiers are at his disposal. The horsemen always wear a suit of armor and helmet. They carry a sword, a bow and arrows and a kind of flail with sharp points. The soldiers wear suits of armor and helmets, have muskets, swords and short pikes and carry 50 shots........" 2.) As far as learning three arts, that begins to sound more like the curriculum used by the rural corvee troops. The SUH/SEO family may have been monied at one time and were able to have instructors come in to their property to give personal lessons. It is also possible, since we don't have the notebooks to examine, that anyone may well have "borrowed" material from various locations and whipped it together as representing a series of notebooks. Its happened before. 3.) Lastly, we don't have an age for the grandfather but I seem to recollect one being given a while back and my calculations made him about 13 at the time he would have been an instructor. From a historical standpoint I can share the following. a.) If the grandfather was part of the army dispersed in 1907, he had not been in the palace for quite a number of years. b.) Japanese, the Chinese and the Russians all took their turn at guarding the person of the King Kojong beginning in 1881 with Lt Horimoto Reizo and his cadre. Personally, I'm left to wonder just how, when and where grandfather ever availed himself of his office as "instructor" given the historical facts. FWIW. Thoughts? BTW: I don't mean to impune anyone, but is it possible that grandfather may have just been using an inherited sinecure with the Korean military? Such positions were ubiquitous in the Korean culture and often the individuals never even showed-up. Maybe grandfather had such a position as a YANGBAN family and folks who came after him simply used his "military position" as a launching pad for authenticating the materials offered by their business, yes? Just spit-balling, now. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
This *fact* has not been proven with hard evidence, and has been debated heavily here on MAP as well as other MA forums. Other well-supported data has been dug up, that could easily sway you into taking a different POV about the origins of KSW. OTOH, most folks in KSW are unaware of this *contradictory* material, and are quite happy swallowing all the prevarications spread by WKSA. But I'm not here to argue this (rather old) debate, I just wanted to make sure that you were AWARE of it (note the parenthetical aside in my post, stating IF you agree with the "official" KSW dictum). Sorry. This was first-hand information told to me by "the man" himself. The MA taught to him by his grandfather, was meant for FAMILY MEMBERS ONLY. He felt that MA such as TKD, which despite some tae kyun influence WRT kicking skills, were influenced too heavily by JAPANESE traditions. His intention was to reunite the Korean people with a heritage that was virtually lost. But then again, that doesn't rule out MONEY as an ulterior motive, either. :evil: And I also see that before I could get this post up, our good friend Bruce W Sims managed to help refute exactly what I was referring to at the top of this post (I knew that I didn't need to go into nitty gritty details, as it's been argued over & over & over & over...).
It’s remarkable to see how things turned around. The question about the masters leaving the won has had two rather enlighten answers: first was money and freedom and second was the student leaving the master to continue his/her development. IMO there is something else involving those two very valid answers. On the other hand, the history behind the origins of KSW is and will always be surrounded by a little of legend and therefore some contradictions since it’s very difficult to find historical data that support the different points of view. Just my modest opinion...
