?Why do Filipinos prefer foreign martial arts?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by patfromlogan, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. wanlu99

    wanlu99 Yaw-Yan and MuayThai Fan

    Yaw-Yan in URCC


    as to my last count there have been atleast 3 Yaw-Yans who fought in URCC under Hybrid Yaw-Yan...Allan Marcus Co if Im not mistaken is Undefeated in 2 or 3 fights...Louie Yap tko'd a Tracma Senior fighter...In URCC4 the last Hybrid Yaw-Yan who competed didnt win in the MMA category...and another Yaw-Yan (Yaw-Yan Pasay)got confused in the rules and got disqualified because of illegal strikes in the Striking category...

    I have to agree that a lot of our Kababayans prefer the foreign styles maybe bacause of the ff.

    Better Gyms...nicer fasclities.
    Other styles are famous in Schools (P.E.)
    Other styles have international sports programs..(included in SEA and Asian Games)
    Maybe...just maybe these are the reasons or atleast some of the reasons...

    If only we are like Thailand who promotes MuayThai real well...I mean every kid in every block in Thailand does MuayThai...its their National Sport...and they are seriuos about it...our National Sport is Sipa...anyone here knows an internationally acclaimed Sipa Celebrity from the Philippines...Arnis is something we should all be proud of...its influence all over the world is great...I hope we can do something about it and change our National Sport to Arnis instead of Sipa...No offense meant to our sipa athletes...

    my two cents po

    Last edited: Jun 3, 2004
  2. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    As a matter of fact here in the UK their are a few MMA fighters who are originaly FMA based WEKAF World Champion Neil McLeod for instance has had a great carea in MMA, My own wife who has won 3 World FMA full contact titles and is the only female member of the Black eagle Society won a British MMA title after having a baby and Kidney problems, I have train a few other fighters who have competed at top level here in the UK in MMA.
    I don't know about other countries but many FMA practitioners also dable in MMA. Also we too have our own indigenous martial arts and it is said that record go further back than record of martial arts in China. The Celts were well known for the martial skills.
    My Grand Father was an old Pugilist and enjoyed to a great degree the Cudgel. I was lucky (or unlucky depending on how you look at it) when I was a child in Scotland to receive first hand expeariance of his skills, especially if I lost a fight in school. This knowledge has stayed with me, and you will also be surprised just how close British Stick fighting is to the FMA, but then again the European's were in the Philippines for over 300 years. Not only the Spanish, The Brits were there too so maybe we all influenced each other
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2004
  3. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    Gryphon hall... You bring out very valid points and important ones if I may share my honest view with you . You from the Philippines I take it? may alam ka bang pinoy na lalaban ng matino? (know any pinoy who will fight fairly?) As one instructor put it when asked to train emptyhands "we don't respect emptyhands fighting"....we don't care...we would rather stab you...there I said it! Just being honest to the mentality of the local pinoy. No time to build my body, no time to go to airconditioned training halls and pay for BJJ lessons who's teachers have big $$$ to go everywhere to learn it, Economics plays a big part. Just like any other successful program it's how you train it. FMA emptyhands are just as good and I have used in but not in the context that others who train sports or fair fighting would do. Like we said it's not a sport oriented art at least not the way I percieve it to be. Those that do emptyhands very well like our friend Pat pointed out have the time to put into it. To be good at anything requires time spent repetitively and actively trained to develop skill, then actively sparred or tested. Learn FMA in the backyards of home then most masters will spend time teaching you weapons and train in weapons. Emtyhands is a side feature to break the monotony and usually done in the context of "what happens if..." the demo begins but not pure training because that would look too much like a boxing session with pads etc etc. :) Then the futility of hard work of emptyhands is easily destroyed in seconds when the blade is introduced because afterall we always claim it comes from weapons Then we realize, let me fight smarter not harder. I am more worried about facing a knife from multiple "jologs" on the street than fighting emptyhands, Uso sa atin lumaban sa rambol (it's common to gfight in numerous groups like gang fights" and always weapons will be involved not emptyhands. That's why the phrase said "we don't respect emptyhands". ...who has time to train it continously to be so good at it? ? Not at home! we as pinoys would rather train weapons because in the end , it's what is used on the streets. The majority of practitioners do not have tournaments to train for, nor do they have the time to practice it as an art form..we do so to learn what to do to save ourselves...in other countries where it is a luxury to learn arts it's a different story...here we now have structure like Panantukan...never heard of back home but seen in books writen by Masters or Guros who teach in a school or academy where it is like a course of study but at home where we do not have schools and lessons are informal? but it IS FMA BASED put in place by FMA ers who have the time to structure the art form because the need is there to teach it for schools those who want to train in it and put all the time into training it like boxers or muay thai would can make it very effective. But you have to train it like bjj goes on the matt, or like boxers and Muay thai would take it to the ring. Same with dumog...who wants to train having their necks cranked and spine manipulated over and over and knowing that "little" things play a big part of the equation to better the technique (eyepoking, fish hooking biting all these Physical weapons form a weapons art?) our emptyhands are reserved for the street and combat not the ring. We'll leave it to other FMa arts like yaw yan, sikaran, and now pinoy mma to bring in some FMA ideas to a safe venue like the ring.

    You mentioned urcc and mma? ask the promoter of the mma world back home. He has the fighting spirit , He and his friends are also memners of fraternities! That is why they have real world experince too..they have all the experience in the ring and in the streets some have gone close to death...been stabbed and beaten in "rambols' and street fights, ask them ....where was mma , grappling or striking in those fights? out the window! those that tried it the first time ended up beaten or stabbed...knives and guns where always involved. In the ring MMA, in the streets FMA don't take my word for it..ask them yourself.
  4. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    This was part of the point I was trying to put across much earlier in this discussion. FMA does not have the pseudo-honorable code most Japanese MA's exhibit. The only concern is life or death, and that is why weapons are an integral part of FMA (except maybe for those which began to get patterned after foreign arts like sikaran).

    An arnis instructor once said in a seminar that when he went to the US and sat with a couple of big black guys in the train he realized that he had no illusions of winning against these large people just with his karate skill. But give him a stick or a knife and it would be a different story.
  5. shuyun3

    shuyun3 Shugyosha

    Indeed, ingeniuity and cunning are the primary Filipino traits. Honor is not lost but, to fight and live is honorable whereas to lose when something can be done about it is not honorable; it is stupidity.

    Not to say that a Filipino will stab you in the back once a fight is concluded but a Pinoy understands that peace is always fleeting. Retribution may come after a victory thus there is always the need to watch our backs. But after one has one honorably (meaning he won within the context of a match) to use lethal force is justified if one breaks that agreement. (After winning a match Pinoy walks away and Jologs decides to satisfy his pride by backstabbing, if Pinoy kills Jologs as Jologs goes for the kill, it is no longer Pinoy's fault).

    Unfortunately there are Jologs who do not honor matches and treachery must be matched with ruthlessness when the need arises.

    Yikes! All this from a people known for their hospitality.
  6. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Sir Bayani: yes, am from Pinas; Pinoy sa puso't diwa. And, I think, like most other pinoys, I have had to learn the martial arts informally, that is, without benefit of a dedicated training hall.

    Tama ka, you're right. I have yet to see a Pinoy fight fairly in a "rambol", what is effectively a street battle where one really wants to maim or kill (I mean, look at our news on what are essentially "walk-by executions").

    I, myself, am very uncomfortable fighting without weapons; I feel more secure with at least a stick. And fighting with weapons really do give better guarantees for survival than fighting without (I know what you mean by the jologs thing—kapag ganun, I would feel safer kung pwede lang with a sword).

    Yet, the objection to having escrimadors participate in MMA tournaments, or having tournaments of their own, is based on the assumption that if it becomes a "sport" it necessarily means that the fighting art is watered down to actually become ineffective in real situations. I call it an assumption, even when such cases do exist, jujutsu to judo, hwoarangdo to taekwondo, European swordfigthing to modern fencing, etc., because I think we've only thus far seen it in an ergo propter hoc simple way.

    Let me put it this way: if a highschool student participates in a science quiz bee, it necessarily means that student will end up not being a real scientist. Seems absurdly simple and as absurdly false, right? Yet that is what is happening in the Philippines, we see HS students being trained to win quiz bees but undergoing no real learning. I have seen quiz bee champions not do well in the then National College Entrance Examinations (NCEE); they can't even really understand or explain some simple science experiements.

    Conversely, there are some high schools who turn out really good scientists but suck at tournaments.

    Now, some high schools, notably some private high schools who have sometimes done well, sometimes not in such a "tournament" have deplored such quiz bees as "unhelpful" and not really "realistic", justifying why they have since not sent any pariticipants to the meet.

    There has been, however, some exceptions—students who do win quiz bees and still be good scientists insofar as they can understand scientific principles. These teachers understood that it wasn't the nature of the quiz bee that produced mediocre students, but the attitude between training and education.

    We cannot say that escrima cannot compete in tournaments simply because our techniques are lethally effective and cannot be used in tournaments. Of course tournaments will have such limitations—they have to, to make scoring easier. It doesn't necessarily mean that people who have been used to tournaments must lose their street effectivity. I mean, our own stuntmen and action stars, who for a living pull their punches and actually learn to make their fighting ineffective to prevent injuries, have proved that if need be, they can hold their own in a real conflict (remember Sonny Parsons?)

    What? Just because we can't use eye-gouges, bites, groin strikes, joint and nerve destructions, and bone-breaking in a tournament the art gets watered down? Of course, it has happened in the past, but only because it was held up to be superior to the old way.

    I believe that tournaments with thoughfully crafted rules can make us better at real fights. Why not? In my experience, I actually became a better swordsman when I took up badminton, and badminton is not a fighting art. Besides, most of the "rambols" I have witnessed, though they end up as free-for-alls, start out as ambushes or as executions with the target facing the other way; yup, smart, as in, magulang. I have seen these fights; frankly, nangangandarapa ang karamihan ("most were just flailing their arms"—the closest paraphrase I can get); those who seem to be doing the smarter, more economical, more surgical moves and those who escape with fewer injuries have at least trained under controlled conditions. In fact, I think that if we train with street fights in mind, we will end up with a pathetic art that is effective at sneaking up on enemies, and fighting while running away ('di ba, ganun naman talaga?)

    Yes, not all of us will have the time or money to train to compete in tournaments, but that isn't necessary. Sige, only those who can train will compete, not all of us; the rest of us can at least watch the tournaments and learn something.

    One can argue, for instance, that pugilism lost much of its combat-effectivity when it was formalized into boxing, and that may be true. But how many more principles and techniques that have been since discovered or applied in the boxing sport that was later incorporated in real martial arts would not have been simply because the "watered-down sport" didn't exist? What would JKD be, or even a lot of Frat fighting techniques be, if the shuffle-step in boxing was not seen, and seen used effectively by Ali? Or the laughable "sport fencing", for that matter?

    My brother (Estel Authorion) and I disagree on having Escrima ever being in tournament form with good rules; both of us have been in real fights. But as a former high school and college teacher, I know there are skills that are good for contests and those more appropriate for real world use. Doesn't mean that contests are bad. In fact, I have never seen an instance where the sort of discipline one gets training for a contest has had an adverse effect on a student. Yes, I have had contest champions being actually mediocre in real-world applications, but they would have been worse if they had not been trained to win, at least, in contests. Good, practical students, that is, those students who understand and can apply real-world principles and yet cannot seem to get good test scores or get high grades improve after they have been passed through the rigors of preparing for a contest.

    So, what I think can be done for FMA, even if we cannot break in to the "empty-hands" arena of MMA, is that a better set of rules for tournament be devised, a set of rules that can hone real-world skills without having to be lethal. This would be better for the art, I think, than training with a streetfight in mind.
  7. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    I am a firm believer in train the way you fight so you will fight the way you train. Learn to hold off with some techniques for fear of hurting the other or they are considered illegal i believe will have some impact on your accuracy or even your ability to really do so in when the time comes. it's all about conditioning. I would rather be the one who practices to use what I do than my opponent who will hold back ...he may know about some techniques, even talk about it in training but unless he is conditioned to do so will he be able to do it for real? Now I am talking about FMA as a fighting art. Not sport. So far I don't find the way most FMA sport competitions are being held as palatable to my taste. But more power to those that find enjoyment in it.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2004
  8. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Yun nga ang akala, bok (Bro, that is the very assumption)! If you continuously train to merely "kill" or "maim" people you end up with techniques that can be easily countered if the target sees it coming. One cannot really "train" to be "realistic" for real, or every sparring partner one has (or the person himself) will be too busted up before any real battles happen (like, in training, do we actually say: O, sige, bro, tusukin mo mata ko, ha? tapos babaliin ko braso mo... [C'mon, bro, gouge my eye out, ok? while I break your arm]). Do we actually do that in training to be more effective? Even soldiers who go out to real war in real battles use blanks and marksmanship training with no live targets during training.

    Of course, the kata people will be pleased with non-effective training, and I would vehemently disagree. But if rules can be made more effective, relatively speaking (like comparing UFC and Pride) one can still have an approximation of real combat. If you learn to be able to give bruises to a muscle with a punch, who is to say that if you later aim at the throat of, say, a kidnapper or terrorist that it would not be effective? 'Di ba?
  9. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    Yes you're right about not going 100% but close is good. Even soldiers who use blanks train to shoot at a target, We actually do train to thumb the eyes just wear goggles. For one thing, we actually DO the motion so kinesthetically and visually the movement is done thus creating the path way of muscle memory.

    "If you continuously train to merely "kill" or "maim" people you end up with techniques that can be easily countered if the target sees it coming."
    ???? Sorry, That does not make sense to me.

    I don't go looking for trouble, but if the jologs have plans to rob and kill me, to leave me bleeding in the streets...to maim or kill them seems like a good idea. Some of us may have had experiences in life that make us see the realism of violence, there is no honor, no fair fighting when life becomes cheap around you. Read the papers my friend. It's everyday and all around us.

    I hope that I don't come out as a proponent that FMA is for killing , Its an art form related to violence c'mon , Every movement with weapons is designed to Cut, lacerate, decapitate, blungeon etc... Knives? Unless you're baton twirling don't tell me that if you were to use any of your weapons it would not cause damage? I don't know what FMA you are doing but I have no false pretence that what we do is dangerous if ever we have to use it and am very well aware of the consequences. if it should ever be used. It just so happens that some believe that the best defense is a good offense....of course the best is not to even get into a bad situation to begin with.

    "One cannot really "train" to be "realistic" for real, or every sparring partner one has (or the person himself) will be too busted up before any real battles happen "

    If sparring in the context of it's limitation is your gauge then maybe so, There are some things that have already been proven to work, FMA has the body count. Don't tell me that you don't know what weapons can do to the body. I'm not a very smart man, so I'll take the word of my Manongs that if you stab a person in the right place it can kill them.

    all of the above of course is the last resort in defending one's own life.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2004
  10. Estel Authorion

    Estel Authorion Regrets my stupid posts

    Why we disagree

    The primary reason why Gryphon and I disagree is that I do believe that a person will fight as he has trained. Not opinion, but a belief. The truth is, I do not oppose actual competition, its just that I cringe at the concept of "rules". And this is not because I disbelieve in rules as such. I like the rules of boxing, and despite the limitations of that martial sport it will always be more effective than TKD or point scored Karate. Why? Because the object of the conflict is still there: to actually beat your opponent.

    Boxers can get knocked out even though, pointwise, they were "winning". This is also one of the reasons why I also enjoy Pride FC: a person who is dominating early in a fight can be knocked out cold or made to submit.

    So I obviously enjoy the same kind of stuff Gryphon likes, so why do we disagree? Think of an escrima match where it is allowed to bludgeon your opponent senseless. Yes, boxers have died in the ring because of the mallets they wear, and Gracie got his elbow dislocated by Sakuraba. I admit that the techniques used will work in an actual street fight. But fighting with sticks that can beat a person senseless have more killing power than a boxing glove or a Kimura. Remember Musashi?

    I fear that the only way to make Escrima sports safe is to necessitate heavily protective armor or make Escrima just another game of tag.

    The only condition I gave Gryphon where I would possibly accept a tournament match with sticks is if the rules were similar to boxing or Pride but with heavily protective armor (definitely not like the ones now used by sport arnis or kendo, but something resembling a full suit of armor). The rules must be about beating the opponent unconscious or make him unable to continue the fight. I would want as little of point scoring as possible, if any. My contention is, how long will this sort of competition last before it is outlawed?

    That being said, I look favourably on Filipino unarmed tournaments involving the unarmed aspects of FMA. I do believe that a well-trained Kimura can defeat a "simulated" eye-gouge. I dislike kata and the rehearsed routines of "drills" and such. Yes, I am one who believes that one will fight as one trains. How does one train to do a groin kick unless one actually does it in the heat of contest? One must actually know how to do a groin kick on a person who is trying not to get hit.

    I remember trying a kiri otoshi (or in Arnis terminology, tama buhat araw, "attack from the sun/sky") on Gryphon all the time and he just would not cooperate! I had to learn later that for a technique to be effective, it must be done on a person who will try his best to frustrate the technique even before you learn it. Thus, I hold that only by conflict can a technique be polished to a standard that can be used in real life.

    That is why I do believe that those MMA people can use their techniques in a real fight more effectively than a person who merely simulates poking eyes or kicking crotch. But a person who has actually poked eyes and kicked crotch will definitely have an advantage over a person who could only grapple. But people do not just grapple anymore. Also, technique overload slows response. So a person who knows how to box, kick, and grapple has the "simpled down" advantage over a person who must choose in actual combat whether to punch, kick, grapple, gouge, etc.

    Jigoro Kano's students won over the other jujutsu schools because they knew how to make their techniques work over a resisting opponent. Their competition only did kata (even if jujutsu kata are more effective than judo "tricks"). So, despite the fact that Judo was watered down jujutsu, it defeated jujutsu because actual competition does condition a person for an actual fight. That is why Bruce Lee valued Judo over jujutsu/aikido.

    Which is why although I accept competition in unarmed combat, weapons are too dangerous for my taste.

    Sorry Gryph!
  11. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this how a "rambol" starts and goes on?

    Guy 1 is sitting down eating lunch. Guy 2 sneaks up on him with a baseball bat. Guy 2 brains Guy 1, maybe killing him, maybe not. All of Guy 1's friends start taking out their own weapons while Guy 2 starts to run away while flailing with the bat. Guy 2's friends start blocking the way of Guy 1's friends, with a "tama-ilag" rhythm, that is, swing/hit, then fade-away. This goes on as long as the authorities haven't arrived yet.
    That is how I see a "rambol" happen, and I know a person who has seen that attack coming in, intercept, deflect, and get a punch in on his own. Empty-handed. Though Jologs with knives are not a pretty sight, one who has trained in real-time competitions can judge timing and range better than one who only simulates real combat.

    Ganun naman pala, eh! (Ah, that's how it is!—another imperfect paraphrase; sorry Master Yoda) Who then is to say that tournament participants cannot wear self-same goggles and make fighting more realistic during contests?

    Well that's why I think tournament fighting is a safer venue to try out real skills, rather than wait for the rare opportunity that you are involved in a fraternity rumble or when a mugger comes to rob and then find out that you cannot do that particular technique fast enough. Yeah, soldiers do use real bullets in target training, kaya nga (that's why) there is such a thing as marskmanship competitions. But they do not shoot real people, do they? Or do we get soldiers to dodge live bullets fired realistically, as in, being shot to kill?

    Actually, I have no false pretences about MA, even FMA can ever be a "safe" sport. Like in Boxing, one can get internal organs damaged, noses broken, even boxer's drowsy. Why can't FMA be like that? I mean, really compete, expecting to injure and be injured? Why can't FMA be one of those extreme sports?

    Of course, I do. So how does one train to develop realistic skills and use them in real-time realistic combat, then? As you said, we shouldn't look for trouble. Why not train for contest, then? Pwede naman. We can't always train by joining fraternity rumbles or defending against jolog mugging.

    On the contrary, I can honestly say that you are one of the few intelligent posters I have read. Don't diss yourself too much. Peace tayo, bro! :love:

    Again, twin bro, the assumption that unless one trains with actual strikes, then in a real fight he cannot deliver actual strikes. From one who never gave me a broken nose but has broken the noses of two muggers. How do you explain that?

    Believe it or not, there are always rules, even in rumbles. One rule in rumbles is not to get hit. If there are no rules, why, not getting hit flies out of the window, right?

    Which is my point. When one can train himself to fight in competitions against different kinds of opponents, I think one has a better chance at performing better, and surviving better during a real street fight, because they have experienced "competition". Even full-contact sparring is a contest, done without the really lethal strikes but with the inevitability of injury. Why can't tournaments, like Pro Boxing, be like that?

    Maybe I can accept that. Maybe I can be convinced that sport competitions that simulate real combat is not a good idea, because the injury will be more serious than that of Pro Boxing. But I still would not agree that just because one trains to deliver less-than-lethal strikes it automatically means in a real fight, when one needs to maim and kill if need be, one will not be able to. It all depends on attitude and training. I mean, that's why we test cut with our bolos and swords, right?

    Sorry Estel. ;)
  12. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    using the example above, it's not just a matter of doing an eye gouge but also knowing how to do it..and then create counters to it and know when to do it and studying the reaction of doing it. Targets are created from studying it's use in combat. I read a phrase somehwere where a manong staed "many lives have been lost to perfect one technique" if you want to keep something real then you must also understand what such moves can do to the body. So in the context of sparring how then would you consider an eye gouge to be used and then realisticaly continue? Remeber, as part of the study you will have reactions. Anyway we're both argueing good points that really end up as a matter of taste.

    Real time sparring is still implemented in training, it's the competition part I have a problem in...I did not say i do not spar, I use sparring as a gauge to test certain skills in real time training (speed , timing, accuracy) but very much know the limitations could easily affect the reality of it's use. We sometimes spar to learn and use motions taught, to be able to use what was taught while having a training partner that also hits back and resists your attack. This is what I consider simulated fighting, because you are there to learn, not try to win, Each session is done to bring about a test of certain skills not just to see who ends up standing. Because we know that some may take advantage of whatever protectvie gear there is to gain entry but to what expense? Would anyone spar with live blades without protection? More than likely not, would anyone spar with padded sticks or fully padded gear and crash in and absorb shots to gain points or play games of tag....that's all I see in current tournaments. The closest way and the way we spar is that of limited gear...no referees just two practitioners teaching each other .The DBMA, PEKITI, and a host of other systems do this.

    We're probably looking at the same thing but from different vantage points. I'm at a stage of my life where the sport aspect of FMA does not interest me. But like I said more power to you in finding variations ...maybe that's the way to do it. Have a variety of rules that bring about a test of certain skills.
  13. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Interesting thought?

    :cool: I have read this thread with much interest and debate, All of you have very valid points that make good sense.
    Having won over 40 titles in Full Contact FMA events I can see were all of you are comming from. I have fought WEKAF Style, Padded Stick Style, Muay Thai, Boxing, MMA and even Black Eagle Style (a group I head up which is similar to the DBMA).
    You always have to bear in mind this, If you are going to participate in a sport version of the FMA (even Black Eagle or DBMA are a kind of sport as they too have limited rules) you have to be realistic and realise that it is only after all a sport and has many limitations.
    On the other hand it has if used properly has it's advatages too, such as training timing and distance, evasion and attacking skills and of course when to hit and when to avoid being hit.
    I assume when some of you say that when you have seen the sport it is just two people absobing the hits with no regards to reality that you must be talking about the WEKAF format?
    Well all I can say is that to a great degree I agree with you, In the last few years many of the WEKAf events have more and more looked like Stick Bashing competition and it is one of the reasons I stopped doing them, becuase more and more people ignored the fact that if there were no armour then in reality you would not fight like that.
    I pride myself with the fact that even though I fought in the armour to great success at world level I always fought as though I had no armour on along with a handfull of other top class sports fighters, such as Steve Wolk from USA and of course the Philippines very own Percival Pableo to name but a few. I would not assume any of these guys including myself could not hold our own in a real fight with or without weapons, all of us have held our own and have survived to tell the tale.
    After 15 years working of the doors of bars and Nightclubs I can tell you that my FMA training and expeariance from the sporting aspect of the art has held me in good stead, especially when I have been outnumbers 10 to 1.
    Got a good Kicking but kick some butt too and stopped the others from continuing. that is not to say that some time in the future that one little guy could not kill me. I am a realist when it comes to fighting (that comes from Army training) it only takes one shot and the game is over.
    Yes you have to train for reality in your art and yes you have to also get up for work in the morning, and yes you have to try to take everything as close to reality as you possibly can but your training partners still wish to stay your training partners and your friends and they too have to get up for work and feed the family.
    I have been in Gang fights in my younger years were weapons were quite freely used and I tell you it is not a pretty sight, it is nothing like in the movies, it is a lot nastier and scarier than that.
    Use alll forms of training as a training tool, and if you don't like a particular format of training a sport then don't do it, but in turn remember that certain benafits can come from that form of training or sparring.
    I too cannot afford to spend each and every day training and only training, I have a family to feed and a house to keep as does my wife, but our love of the art goes so deep that we always make time to train and spar even using protection, after all my main sparring partner is my wife and if I do not wear protection I am pretty sure she would kick my butt!!!
    Like anything in life, you only get out of it what you want to, and yes, if you feel the sport is the be all and end all of learning real skills then you are in for a big shock my son, You will if you rely on your sporting skills only, get the crap well and truely kicked out of you. But if you use the skills you learn from the sport and add them to the things you are not allowed to do in the arena then more power to you.
    After all if Mike Tyson fought on the street do you really think he would stick only to the rules as laid down by the Boxing Board of Control. I think not, mind you he does not even stick to the rules in the ring does he? but then that is after all his style.
    It is OK comparing sport to the street, but you also have to remember when you are on the street you fight by the street Rules, not the tournament rules even top World Champions in the sport know this.
    Anyway that is just my 2 pennies worth and please keep on debating as this is the only way things develope, change and improve and after all is that not what real FMA is all about.

    Mabuhay to you all.

    Pat "The Cat" O'Malley :cool:
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2004
  14. shuyun3

    shuyun3 Shugyosha

    wow how can i post after a run like that?

    Anyway mga kapatid (brothers) the fine line of realism and waking up for work and winning competitons has a bato-bato pick (hand game of rock, scissors, paper) quatlity to it. One gets over the other then over the other.

    I'd like to train as realistically as I can but I cant show up infront of class the next day with a black eye and expalain it away as a training injury. The school might say I'm promoting violence.

    I do have my share of full contact spars from Estel and Gryphon but I have to be able to pick up the chalk the next day. But I for one who more constantly trains alone have engaged and survived street fights (the latest being the more sucessful because I lost inhibitions to break noses).

    When I was in formal training we trained for both self defense and tournaments but the only difference of which techniques could be used was context. I guess we need to learn to differentiate our fight and flight urges and ride it when true conflct comes. I'd hate to say it but the best preparation for an actual fight is an actual fight.

    Dry land swimming just wont cut it. You only find out how effective and realistic your training is is when you survive one. Then you train in retrospect. I lost my first street fight and that's how I lost my inhibitions to break noses. Just IMHO.
  15. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    You still need to prepare.

    Well said, I totally agree with you, but how do you train for reality?

    Do you go out to the street and pick a fight?

    Maybe you would end up in Jail.

    Obviously you have to find someway to train as close to reality as you possibly can, as well as this you also as you have said get up for work in the morning with no bruises so maybe armour sparring is the answer for you?

  16. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    I guess I would like to pose the question, Do you really understand what this art is all about?. why it was created and how do you continue to evolve the art to make sure it does maintain it's identity and continues to be effective? Peace time martial arts have watered down so many fighting arts. So much has been added to fit current fads or crazes. Some call it Modernizing or staying current with the times. I have seen within this art many things that just don't make sense if it were done for real, and it's obvious that these elements were added on as a result of "peace time" training and not combat. They become flashy, complex and some down right ridiculous to use in a real fight. So once again if you follow the adage "train the way you fight..." then you contradict yourself. I have no problems with sparring closest to what's real , it's a must to do so. But when it can become the main subject rather than a tool to improve or gauge ones skills then you will have these practitioners who train only to spar and have zero skills but that of endurance toe to toe game of point exchanges. I would not want that vission to be attached to FMA because I KNOW there is more to it than just stick fighting or sparring. I guess all in all there should be different levels in the schools of thought , One level that is classical or traditional that focuses on the art form and may have lot's of flashy pretty locks to demonstarte the beauty of the art form, it's mobility , fluidity...art in motion to include development of the body mechanics throguh the art. The there is the combative nature of the art. Simple , effective...and based on reality. The other the sport aspect with all the rules and conditioning that one must have to be competitive...what these rules are? I would like to envision a gathering similar to the fables and stories of the Arthurian days. One that would test different skills. Some test for speed, skills with different weapons, some...just to show the art without the taste for combat :confused: but this way all schools of thought may be able to showcase and compete among each other in their chosen rules that suit their tastes because no matter what..more than often...we will always disagree...it's human nature. but agree to disagree. After reading several posts and getting a feel for how thoughts and personal ideas are shared in this forum there is no one true and right answer. Just different points of view.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2004
  17. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Okay. I would like to answer that question, but first:

    This second statement is what I believe really waters down the arts. What is the art, this martial art, about? It is to learn to win. One does not go out to fight to merely compare skills, especially if you were in a real fight. Oh, yeah, you may learn something new, but to go out there and put your life on the line merely to test certain skills will get a knife in your body.

    When I say that tournament or sport competition can improve skills needed in a real fight (not just a street fight, which I have every reason to respect but which I still believe is more akin to murdering assasins than fighters, but also in real duels), I am not talking about the awful tournament fights I have seen in SM Malls where combatants flail at each other. I mean sport fights like Pro Boxing, where one can really get beat up even if the rules are "limited", like in Pride FC, where one can get really bloodied (though, take note, this is not the point).

    I shall try to repeat my point why I think MMA is a valid recourse for FMA, and why I believe it is possible to have an FMA sport that does not water down the fighting art. And do so as simply as possible. Even in realistic sparring, especially with your own fighting buddies in your school or organization, one can unconsciously get used to that person's fighting style. There is no dishonor in this. Even in realistic sparring, especially if this sparring is used as a teaching tool, one has some inkling at to what the "techniques" will probably used; how can they not? Since, like any good teaching system, there should be a curriculum.

    But in a tournament, you don't know what you are going to face. Your oppponent is not there to "teach" you. He is there to defeat you. Practiced routines, no matter how realistically done while a teacher is watching, will not prepare you for somebody who will either do the technique you are taught to defend, but do it slower or faster. How do you close the distance with one who is taller? Shorter? In sport, you learn to study your opponent. You study your "enemy". Techniques are done in real real time, not the "real" time as done in even realistic sparring matches.

    Where is the only other place where the opponent is not there to teach you but merely to defeat you? The street. The dueling court. The alley ambush. The bus aisle.

    And so, when does it stop being training? When does one see if your skills are real or merely parroted techniques? A streetfight? Yes, that can be, but how often does that come around?

    If one would take the time to observe Pro Boxing, one would see that it has come down to that: simple. effective. based on reality. How so? The faster, stronger, smarter fighter always wins. Even legends are brought down. Even "flashy" techniques can be effective. Sakuraba used a cartwheel (I mean, a CARTWHEEL, for cryin' out loud!) to grab the leg of Gracie, and later dislocate his elbow with a "flashy" technique in a "sport" match. Large circular movements, "flashy" movements, are in modern "realistic fighting" doctrine simply not realistic. Yet this flashy, large circular movement was obviously effective, on a guy who had done real streetfights. Where does one, then, learn to make such things work in real life?

    Yes, of course, that can be true. But if one can observe once again from competitions with good rules, these flashy techniques become really rare, even non-existent, if the rules are used properly. "The old one-two" is rarely used in boxing, but when used, it sure has to be used properly. How do they learn to do that? By practicing on some sparring partner? No; they actually learn for each opponent (if they do their job well) during the fight itself, learning their timing, etc.

    There may be different points of view, but I believe that, in this case at least, there is only one correct point of view. And the only way to find that out is by continuing this discussion (probably in another thread, as this discussion is already way off-topic). Why is it important to discuss this? Because we are arguing the nature of the art of fighting. If, as I believe, all this pseudo-realistic training is being done, without being tested in competitions (worse, with the claim that the testing ground is "the street"), is what waters down the art and, as a consequence, what makes other Pinoys prefer foreign martial arts instead, one has the duty to object.
  18. Estel Authorion

    Estel Authorion Regrets my stupid posts

    Token Strikes

    This is what I mean. I used to train with the UP Diliman Arnis Club (I forget if it is Rapid or Lightning Arnis). The regular members do join these competitions and succeed in giving really bad bruises to their opponents through the armor, while themselves often escaping without a welt. But guess what? The Club members often lose these "tournaments". Not because of any point deductions due to fouls, no. But it so happened that the opponents land more "blows" (which are nothing but flicks or taps in the kendo manner or even wild flails), thereby garnering more points. Of course, the Club guys do not feel that bad: they know that they may have lost in tournament, but they know that in a "real" fight where points mean nothing they will survive.

    I have been in spars where token strikes were made, you know, just taps. I have received "strikes" which I know will not hurt me in a real fight, but the guys would say that, "In real, I would have hit harder/faster." Sorry, I do not believe this. How can somebody practicing to pull their punches learn to go all out?

    But I did break your thumb, right? And we were not really going all out then. I did stab your hand, remember? Yet we were just practicing then, we were not really having a contest. We trained without having to do "real" strikes and still we managed to injure each other and our kid brother. Remember why we had to use toy lightsabers in our training lately? Because our "training drills" with rattan sticks (we left off the use of hardwood before that) often end with busted body parts.

    Now think actual tournament where there is no-holds-barred stick work, the kind that is effective. Do you think the fight will last long enough to keep the fight interesting? What will happen when one of the participants end with a broken skull? It can be done, you know, even through protective armor. Okay, make better armor. But then, strikes become tags instead. Back to point-scoring. Besides, who can afford this high-grade armor?

    It's okay Gryphon.

    Despite my misgivings, I acknowledge the logic of your words, Pat. If tournaments are to be used as training vehicles and not as the actual thing, the means to an end, then okay.

    Then come up with a tentative list of such rules and maybe I might be convinced.

    I have to agree with Gryphon on this one. If there is something I really dislike just as much as "point-scoring" tournamnets it is "simulated combat". This is exactly how kata came about. I find that I learn better when my sparring partner is trying to counter my technique even before I have fully "learned" it. For if a technique needs to be practiced for a long time before it can be used effectively, or I need my partner to "cooperate" first before I "learn" to apply it, this technique is of no use to me.

    If Gryphon did not consciously try to prevent me from using shihonage, I would not have abandoned that flashy (large, circular movement) technique and started learning, on my own, the techniques that are easily learnt and applied against a non-cooperative partner who intends to beat me.

    In short, a martial art which does not have as its goal the defeat of the opponent becomes like those classical martial arts that were beaten by the likes of Yagyu, Musashi, Bruce Lee and Wally Jay.

    That is the question, isn't it? I think that is why many Filipinos prefer foreign martial arts, because these foreign arts often present themselves as having an answer to that question. Filipinos have absorbed many foreign martial arts into their own method, the most well-known are the Spanish sword arts. I myself have taken to the study of British broadsword and the various kenjutsu arts. At least Filipinos do not pretend to have all the answers and are humble enough to try out foreign arts. Alam ko (I know), this smacks of colonial-mentality, but what is the alternative? Is is better to be xenophobic and proud?

    Give the Filipino MA some time. For several centuries the Japanese practiced kumitachi borrowed from China until they formulated their own home-grown styles. The Chinese had to learn Buddhism and Kalaripayat from India before their Shaolin emerged. The Philippines is still young. There is no shame in being a student, in saying, "I need help."
  19. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I think after more than 20 years studying with many top Masters in the Philippines I feel I may have at least a basic understanding of what the FMA is all about, I think that maybe you misunderstand what I was trying to say.

    My point is that yes for the majority the sparring events with the armour have become tippy tappy point scoring events, but that does not mean you cannot use the self same armour to train your REALITY combat skills, If you are brave enough (or stupid enough, depending on how you look at it) you can use minimal armour with limited or virtually no rules such as the Dog Brothers, My own Black Eagle Society group and other groups who use this format and you can even use padded sticks or Forms / Sayaw to enhance your training skills.

    I have fought in over 400 bouts using the WEKAF rules and armour and have had the fortune to win 90% of my bouts, not because I have adopted a tippy tappy style, because I have fought as close to reality as possible within the rules of the game (and it is a game), I have broken many a bone and cuased many a bruise as well as received both. I have even lost bouts to people that I know I have well and truely thrashed into the ground and lost against better fighters but with every bout I have learnt some more about myself and about REAL combat. As a matter of fact I was the first person to fight in about without the body armour at a WEKAf world championships this was in 1998, yes it hurt like hell and I got a few bones broken but it was fun and it still had its limitations, I was not on the street trying to kill the other guy so therefore it is not reality.

    Working as a Doorman I have probably been in more real combat situations than most and understand what they are all about and by luck more than not I am still here and this is all down to the FMA.

    What I ma trying to get across is this, you have to explore every avenue and try every format to see the benafits and the pitfalls, if you can understand the benafits and pitfalls of each format then you can get out of it what you put in. If you decide to fight tippy tappy style then yes, that is how you will fight in a real fight, but if you try to fight as you would for real and even if you always lose in tournaments against the person who just point scores then in reality you will be all the better for it.

    As I said before, short of going out on the street and picking a fight (which may get you killed) you need to find a way to TRAIN safely as we all have to get up for work in the morning. Even the Army have simulated combat (I am sure this has been pointed out before) I know I was in the Army for 5 years and yes I have seen and been in real combat situations.

    So do I understand the FMA, I thinks so, I hope so because if I dont I must be the luckiest man alive as it is the FMA that has saved my skin on many an occasion, but saying that after more than 20 years of training and over 15 years of competing in many full contact formats I am still learning each and every day.

    There is an old saying were I come from "You never realy undersatnd anything untill you take your last breath, then the penny drops and you understand EVERYTHING"

    It is not a contradiction when someone agrees with some of your points and it is not a contradiction to dislike a certain format of sparring but still use it for the benafits although they may limited. It is a smart fighter who takes the benafits from all formats of sparring and combat and a stupid fighter who only looks at the pit falls.

    Back on subject, I feel that the Filipinos prefer martial arts from outside the Philippines because they still do not fully understand the diversity and complexity of their own art, and that I am afraid is not down to the other arts, that is down to the FMA instructors and practitioners in the Philippines, you need to go out and educate your public and show them why the FMA can and as I beleive superior to the majority of other martial systems.

    I also thinks that yes we have all gone a bit off topic and should continue this in another thread.

    Best regards

    Pat O'Malley :woo:
  20. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Thanks, sir! Actually, that's why we went a bit off-topic, since some of us believe that getting FMArtists into publicized "matches" will do for FMA what UFC did for BJJ; it not only showed the strengths of BJJ, but some of the weaknesses, helping develop it into a better system, while making it popular. Some of us believe that popular equals watered down or ineffective, while some of us don't see why that is strictly necessary or true.

    Thank you for the insight!

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