?Why do Filipinos prefer foreign martial arts?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by patfromlogan, Mar 8, 2004.

  1. patfromlogan

    patfromlogan Valued Member

    I've just pasted these two posts from Discussion on Schools and Teachers
    Schools for Ninjutsu and Kung fu (all styles) in Manila, Philippines?

    I'm putting it here because it is off topic to the question about ninjitsu and kung fu schools in Manila. The issue that has come up with my post and Gryphon Hall's is why do Filipinos seem to prefer foreign martial arts, in the Philipinnes? I am from Hawaii and Filipino martial arts are very respected there and on the mainland United States.

    Besides the heavy influence in JKD, the well known and repected systems of Kali, Escrima, and Arnis, many martial arts schools such as Kosho Ryu Kempo and Okinawan Shorin-ryu Karate-do have adopted FMA techniques. The Kajukenbo style's flowing movements are based on Kali. All over the world everyone seems to have the highest respect of FMA, except in the Philipines!

    Side note on the history of FMA and it's relation to Kempo/Kenpo:
    Adriano Emerado, a Hawaiian Filipino who was taught Escrima and other arts, was the major force in the creation of Kajukenbo, the parent school lineage of martial arts systems as diverse as Godin's Ohana/Hawaiian Kempo, Universal Kempo, Shaolin Kempo, Villari Martial Arts and all it's split off like United Shaolin, United Studios, Masters Self Defense Centers, Bagley, Demasco, etc, Gaylord Method Kajukenbo, Vargas Kempo, CHA-3, Kenkabo, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. Sijo Victor "Sonny" Gascon, another first generation Hawaiian Filipino who was taught FMA amongst other arts, and Godin seem responsible for ALL the Kempo that's not Parker lineage on the entire East Coast-being the teachers of George Pesare who taught Nick Cerio. The influence of FMA has not been noted very much in Kempo/Kenpo, as at the time teachers such as Gascon and Emperado were not taught in official schools, rather in informal family settings when they were young. Later they studied in named official schools. It was only in 1988 that Emperado revealed that Kali was the style within the style of Kajukenbo.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2004
  2. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Public Awareness.....?

    Hi patfromlogan

    It's the same here in the UK, very few are interested in the traditional indigenous arts, preferring the mainstream TKD, Karate, KFu, etc....
    Even those who study FMA here are unaware that stick-fighting was a very popular practice in the UK, with full-contact matches, padded equipment / helmets, etc.

    I remember reading of a UK instructor who travelled to the Phillipines and found that many of the general public he came into contact with were unaware of FMA.

  3. Silentblade

    Silentblade Silent Death

    Here in the Philippines, FMA ignoramuses think that Arnis/Kali/Escrima is just stickfighting. So for them, losing the stick (or absence of the stick) makes FMA useless. Because of that they prefer foreign MA like TKD, Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, Kickboxing, Aikido, etc. The fact that FMA is local, Filipinos think that its boring, ineffective, and not worthy of prestige. Colonial Mentality is one thing. So sad...
  4. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Funny, I'd noticed this too.

    There's been a lot of discussion here about Pillipines Karate politics.

    Also in India, we have guys here doing TKD and Karate, when they have their own interesting native arts.

    Grass is always greener?
  5. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    Simple reasons:

    1. The "mainstream" MA's have better exposure. There's even an actor here who actively promotes taekwondo. And almost every school in manila has taekwondo in their PE courses.

    2. The oppurtunity to participate in pseudo-mysticism. Most of these mainstream Ma's preach Zen and I think this appeals to most people.

    3. Hollywood. Only recently did a movie demonstrate what an efficient knife fight would probably look like. Besides this, most people don't even know that it was arnis.

    4. Popular culture. Arnis has not permeated that part of Philippine life the way TKD, Karate, and Kung Fu has. Has anybody seen a video game character who does a redonda, or an abaniko, or heck (I'm digging here) the basic sinawali?
  6. Silentblade

    Silentblade Silent Death

    Theres a video game called Soul Calibur that has a Filipina character (her name is 'Talim' ) in it. The sad thing is she didn't represent FMA. Instead, she used a Tonfa-like weapon with a bladed edge. WTF is that.
  7. surgingshark

    surgingshark Valued Member

    Little sidenote, "Talim" means "Edge" :D

    I have no idea what that weapon is. I wish she would've at least fought with a yo-yo...

    which reminds me

    ...does anyone know of any documents or images of yo-yo fighting? The only people who seem to use that style these days are Japanese High School Girls (inside joke)...
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2004
  8. Silentblade

    Silentblade Silent Death

    This is Talim. :D

  9. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Actually this reminds of an ad in here, a kid is playing with his toy in the playground, he's very happy and satisfied with it, another kid comes with a bigger toy, the first kid just stars at it in jealousy and then grabs it as soon as he gets the chance, we are humans, it's a tendency to be attracted to foregn things rather than appreciate what you have.

    For anything in India most will always prefer the "made in USA" or "made in UK" rather than "made in India" it does not apply only to MA.

    That would be me!!! :D

    Thing is not everyone is aware of their own arts that are available to them, I never knew what the heck kalari was before coming here :eek:

    I hope to be learning kalari or kushti sometime who knows I might take it up pretty soon ;)

  10. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Or, if it is shown at all, like in the Jedi Knight video game series, it isn't recognizeable, or is done in such a way that makes other MA seem quicker and more effective. I mean, compare the Wushu swordfighting seen in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon with Anakin Skywalker's and Jaden Korr's sinawali techniques in Star Wars.

    Heck! I didn't even know Talim was Filipina. One would think that that info would have reached the grapevine.

    By the way, back in school it used to be taken for granted that the yo-yo did begin as a Filipino weapon, but I don't know how it was used, or if there is any evidence that it was anything but a sophisticated top.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2004
  11. shuyun3

    shuyun3 Shugyosha

    It's not all that bad Silentblade. The Tonfa has an indeginous from in the Philippines called "hawakan" (means handle). Handle of what you ask? A grinding wheel for rice. So its only difference is the telltale hole at the end.

    This version is simply a practice of artistic license. She has a bladed tonfa. Ain't that cool!

    But yeah pinoys think that FMA are only sticks. Well in a way that myth is good for the practicioners too. It gives opponents a false sense of security when you go unarmed. And yes there is little recognition of the FMA in the Philippines. Though the government is trying to unify the diverse forms of it (bad move if you ask me) but at least there is an opportunity to spread it. And one other factor is i think pinoys think of it as baduy or tacky. There aren't any international events on it and so on.

    Sad very sad :(
  12. Silentblade

    Silentblade Silent Death

    I prefer arnis/kali/escrima to be used. Tonfa is soooo karate. (no offense to karate practitioners) Karate + FMA is soooo... nevermind. :rolleyes:

    It's the media.
  13. FMA_Demon

    FMA_Demon New Member

    fellow practitioners, i hope you won't mind if i share a bit of history that has a connection as to why FMA is not very popular to the filipinos.

    1) This small island of ours (long before the coming of spaniards) is already divided into so many tribes who would not agree to one and the same thing.
    ***note that the japanese has one religion, one leader, and one culture which made them united and strong. same thing happened to thailand. which is why their arts are so well known not only in their backyard, but in the whole world as well.

    2) The "serrado-catolicos" filipinos of the 1600's where made to believe that the banning of the kali/escrima/arnis is something that has to be followed because it was a rule that came from the clergymen.

    3) The people from the government where all sons and daughters and grandchildren of the old believers of "serrado-catolicos".

    Give me a "NAME" of a filipino who represented the Filipino Martial Arts in International competitions and won the matches, thus making the "fma" a superior art. I'm not talking about boxers, taekwondo jins, etc... i am talking about "someone" who proved to the world that "fma" is a big thing (like what the gracies, jet lis, bruce lees. shamrocks, etc... did to make their art shine in the spot light. let's face it... we have non.

    is "jiu jitsu" an original brazillian art? it's not. but they were able to make it popular and in demand because they went out there and kick assess, right?

    making something sound great, look great, and works great, would put a martial arts on t.v., newspapers, radios and become a talk of the town kind of art. i do not want to go on further because this topic is something to be discussed in a seminar.

    but don't get me wrong now. FMA is running in my blood. I am only cutting my explanations short. :woo:
  14. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Warning: Rant

    Well, that's the blahdey point, isn't it? FMA_Demon is right: Why haven't any of FMA stylist competed in an MMA tournament? I mean, sige, assuming no "stick fighters" will join (though I see no reason why not, since we all claim that Kali/Escrima/Arnis de Mano also applies to barehanded techniques), why aren't there any Dumog, Sikaran, or any of those barehanded arts fighting in tournaments? And I have seen the arguments that such tourneys are not really no-holds-barred and all, but so what? We only fight when it is no-holds-barred? Why aren't there any in UFC or Pride, or even (correct me if I'm wrong) in our own local Universal Reality Combat Championship?

    So, inspite of our protestations that FMA is not all stickfighting, apparently not only are our detractors but also our proponents, not just Filipino but those everywhere else, act as if it is.

    Not even fighters from our boxing stables are fighting in MMA; why not?

    Another question: Can we make FMA approach the appeal that basketball does? I mean, hold tournaments first at the barangay level, then the municipal level, then regionals, then national championships? Or have companies like Ginebra San Miguel host their own stable of fighters or something?

    Meant no offense to anyone. Sorry.
  15. FMA_Demon

    FMA_Demon New Member

    Absolutely right gryphon! Filipinos are well known when it comes to weapons only and that's the reason why it is "branded" that way. We cannot blame people if they do not know that Filipino System have Bare Hands, striking-grappling techniques if non of those are seen in the competition circuit. I can attest that there is such department in the FMA and i have proven in my own little way that the bare hand techniques are usefull in competitions.

    But like i said, if someone will go out there and represent this disciplne and win a hundred times, then it will be the talk of the town. everyone will suddenly be interested to know the "formula".
  16. Silentblade

    Silentblade Silent Death

    Well you see, there's sports arnis (WEKAF, ARPI, etc). But some other FMA styles are more on reality/combat/self-defense. In my style, we're not really fan of sports. I bet other non-sport oriented FMA styles think the same thing. Sports and training for the real thing (or other purpose) are different. So you see, there's a conflict. Not every styles will agree to the sports thing. FMA is also very popular among Law Enforcement/Military. Here in the Philippines, Pekiti-Tirsia Kali is the official martial art of the Philippine Marines and Force Recon Marines, PNP- Special Action Force, and soon the Philippine Scout Rangers.

    There are already FMA unarmed/empty hand styles like Yaw-Yan, Sarian, Suntokaran, etc., who joins MMA competitions. Of course they are different. They're more into MMA now.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2004
  17. Silentblade

    Silentblade Silent Death

    Arnis/Kali/Escrima uses more deadlier empty hands, imo. Dumog and Pangamut consists of dirty tricks, dirty grappling techniques, etc., which are not allowed in MMA competitions. Why go down to their level in terms of rules restrictions? If ever I'm gonna fight in a MMA competition, I might end up disqualified for using illegal moves that I'm used to. (like scooping ones eyeballs out) :D

    Some boxers in the Elorde Boxing fights in the local MMA.

    Its not that easy. FMA has hundreds of styles and we all know different styles dont really agree on each other in terms of training, methodology, etc. There's also the superiority complex thing. There's a conflict.

    This will be very easy if FMA is just one system.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2004
  18. Gryphon Hall

    Gryphon Hall Feeling Scholler

    Baka pwede pa naman

    But why not? Isn't that a big hole in our FMA, the fact that we can only be lethal? That we cannot practice our art authentically up to a certain point? Does Arnis/Kali/Escrima have to only be an all-or-nothing MA? Of course there will be rules restrictions, as there are restrictions when we train—I mean we don't really try to lop of each others' limbs or bludgeon each other to death during training, right? Sorry, makulit lang talaga po ako, kaya patawad (I can be really stubborn, so bear with me).

    Wow, that is good news.

    Oh, yeah. Forgot about them. I stand corrected. That is even better news (at least, to me).

    But if we can agree as to what constitutes a valid hit during a tourney fight, I mean, we can have a good exhibition of styles hopefully accomplishing what MA sets out to do: train us to fight. Sige, we may have different training methodologies, ways of delivering strikes, etc. But does that necessarily mean that it cannot agree on the hit? A hit is a hit. I mean, look at boxing—correct me if I'm wrong, but different boxers box differently, but because of rules (yeah, admitedly restrictive rules), boxing styles can meet and contest.

    And I once saw a Kendo match on TV (and I am aware of the endless debates over the combat-effectivity of Kendo, but please bear with me a few more seconds). There was a Niten Ichi Ryu guy using two shinai against another guy having just one shinai. Unfair? Yep, seemed like it since the Niten guy won, but the reason IMO that they allowed it is to acknowledge at least that in the real world you cannot pick an antagonist based on an equivalent style. How will, for instance, Balintawak single stick go up against Doce Pares, even Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, or even Kenjutsu, not to mention the unarmed styles.

    I admit it must involve restrictions, but maybe a thoughtful and insightful construction of such a set of rules will still further combat-effectivity and allow various opposing style to still meet.

    Sorry po talaga at napahaba (I apologize, I got carried away).

  19. Silentblade

    Silentblade Silent Death

    I don't know about the others but I train FMA (PTK) that gear towards Law Enforcement/Military training/application. I don't want to sound that my style is superior than other styles, but in the field of Law Enforcemence/Military theres no room for sports or rules restrictions. I'm not saying that we're not the competitive type, in fact we do real-contact stickfighting all the time. It's just the people who trains with us have a different thing in mind when it comes to martial arts and self-defense. Would you believe that we don't have teens in our group? Those who inquire about our training are the ones who seek traditional, real life application training, most of them are already in their late 20'sm 30's and 40's. They don't care about sports.

    I don't know about the other styles/groups and how they train.

    I believe this can happen but not anytime soon. FMA has a long way to go when it comes unity. I don't even see our own country supporting FMA.

    No need to apoogize pare. This is an open forum for everyone.
  20. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    you want to name names?

    well there is ronald bingwaoel (boltong) and the mumbakki (boltong/ dumog/ kali).

    if you're speaking internationally...brandon vera who took it to adcc. then there's that jkd/ inosanto guy who won a ufc using headbutts.

    then there will be me! the first guy to prove that you can use lightsabers in a kali tourney! (joke guys).

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