Who is responsible for turning karate into a laughing joke in America?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Vinny Lugo, Oct 16, 2016.

  1. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Safety issue too perhaps....you know how those silly newbies can be when rolling!

    Last time I did BJJ I think we did did techniques and that for a month, and then we started doing the positions under pressure and then about 2 months after that people started to roll.
  2. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    And that you have to do that unfortunately reveals the societal perceptions about violence and certain demographics in relation to violence. But I'm sure you know that.
  3. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I just put it that a lot of people would be very uncomfortable with some other newbie treating it like it's life or death. Plus what even is the point of rolling straight away? You learn nothing except how to tap and when.

    I'm sure if someone was exceptionally eager to roll properly in their first month they would get put with someone much more experienced to reduce the risk of injuries.
  4. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Well no one said you have to go that hard. Although as pointed out that is a risk with newbies. And as I said the place I went to it was concurrent. They were teaching techniques and you were rolling from day 1. Just shorter instruction period really.

    Yeah that's a bit more of a logistical problem I guess.
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well like I said we have resistive training after like the first week or two, but not full out rolling. So you spend one week attacking the guard, second week attacking from guard. Practice a little resistive sparring in the third week.
  6. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I think that depends on what you want out of your martial art

    I think the odds of finding a karate style near to you that's actually useful in a full contact environment are allot less than finding say a thai or mma gym that's useful in that regard not all arts or training methods are equal
  7. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    Even the drilling in Muay Thai feels like sparring. We are hitting pads, kicking pads, then we do this 5 for 5 thing. We throw 5 attacks and the opponent defends them, then the opponent throws 5 attacks and you defend them. Its very hands on, which I find appealing.
  8. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    That actually made me learn a lot.
    Sure, I still get tied to a knot all the time (I'm not doing BJJ, so we're not on the ground most of the time), but due to having to tap out, the very least I learned, what mistakes not to make over and over and over.... again.

    When I roll with one of my teachers, I make a wrong movement and *know* I shouldn't have done it; sometimes he's fast enough to use it, sometimes I'm quick enough to pull my arm back.

    I actually learning this way.

    I also got to spar and roll right away.
    We were told to be careful though and me any my partners were of the kind, who actually *would be* and would not let things escalate, due to wrong ego.
    If we were to, we were to go sparring with our teacher.
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yes except a complete beginner has no sense of which ways are the right ways and wrong ways to move. They literally learn nothing whatsoever except to tap. After you've done a month or two you sort of know which ways to move on the most basic level and you'll still be tapping like mad but at least you can move and when someone tells you what you don't wrong it makes a lot more sense than the first day.
  10. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    That tends to be because most sports art fit to their environment and pressure test and adjust drills accordingly, allot of traditional arts try to make their environment and sparring practice fit their drills and forms which can lead to a disconnection between what really happens in an unscripted environment and what they train for
  11. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    There's no reason not to teach Karate this way though. TMA are in something of a state of flux at the moment. For Karate I think sadly Olympic inclusion will push it down the sport route quite heavily ( if the sport format was Daido Juku this wouldn't be an issue).
  12. TwirlinMerlin

    TwirlinMerlin Valued Member

    I blame the Pumphrey brothers ;)

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P3Ohg8P-kU"]Human Wrecking Balls Episode 1 - YouTube[/ame]
  13. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    They made us learn to fall correctly first, but after that, they have this "submission wrestling class" as they call it, and it's basically no-gi BJJ for all levels. So I went there knowing nothing, and just got ripped to shreds. I personally will not go back to that class until I learn more attacks and defenses. It was basically the equivalent of playing a game of Tekken knowing no attacks and what-so-ever and you are playing against the guy that knows like the 12 hit combos and super throws that take away half of your health bar. It was a disaster.
  14. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    Yeah our school has women and some teens that take the classes as well. They usually don't toss people to the wolves like they did me, but I kept saying that I want to spar, so the instructor told me to take the no-gi bjj class to show me why I don't want to roll yet. And I learned very very fast what he was talking about.
  15. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    I must admit that the first time you roll it feels very similar to life or death. It's very aggressive, very fast paced, and it's really intense. It feels like Jason Bourne-style fight to the death when you first do it, and it's very intimidating. You just have to get used to it.

    I don't get most martial arts schools. I did Tae Kwon Do for a while and quit that. Then I tried Tai Chi. They all wanted to know why I was practicing martial arts, and I responded, "Because I want to learn to fight very well". Then they all looked at me like I was saying a dirty word or something, and I'm like, "What? Isn't that why everyone is taking this? You all want to learn to be a very good fighter right?" Then they looked at me like I was a thug. I'm like, "Why else would you do this?" They said to develop, honor, and discipline. I said, "I can do that sitting in a psychologist's office", I don't do this for that. They then recommended that I find a new place to train. That's when I discovered MMA with other, "Barbarians" like myself.
  16. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    Yep, spot on. It was kind of worthless. The only thing you do is get to eat a slice of humble pie, and realize how weak you are compared to these people.

    I would have taken karate if they taught it like that. However, they basically never teach it like that. It's just kicking pads and doing forms all day. It's very boring, and hard to stay with.

    The only other option for me was Krav Maga. But the Krav schools I went to seemed more like a choreographed fight scene in a movie. They would teach you a series of moves like in BJJ but then you never got to go live. I'm like, I'm never going to retain this.
  17. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    The idea that karate is good for kids to get exercise and build character, not just for adults to kick the crud out of each other, is not a modern American invention. It can be traced to Gichin Funakoshi a century ago.
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    We get brand new people to do foundation class only, for 6 to 8 weeks, so they get isolation sparring in from set positions, and have learn enough to know what to do as a first reaction from all the major 6/8 postions, that way they're first successes in rolling will be with something half sensible, (instead of a head lock throw from somewhere random) and people panic less so they enjoy it more.
  19. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    I would actually attend a class like that
  20. Emanon

    Emanon New Member

    I'd say the Japanese began the trend when they took it from Okinawa and made it a sport then brought it to America further refining it for sport and $$. But it pretty much died as soon as it left Okinawa.

    Here are some views and opinions on this subject: Link deleted

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2017

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