It seems to me, in an ideal world, all students outside Japan would have a teacher in their own country, who regular visits Japan and has a deep relationship with a Japanese Shihan. So whats the estimate of the amount of this happening? If that estimate is low, why is that? I think that it is low and its a consequence of the dissemination of knowledge through the deshi system being stretched on an international basis. At the end of the day each individual needs to look after the quality of their own training but the problem probably is this: Students will take years to discover that the quality of their training is actually on a scale that starts with Japan shihan and not their own teacher. Finances/location/life-interests etc get in the way too. I'm pretty sure Soke and the Japanese know this but still encourage us. In the end, its up to us all to hang onto the horses tail as much as possible. The highest level of training is there for everyone with no barriers if you want it enough... but how much do you want it is the biggest question. The second biggest is "do you even know its there". (For me PR's posts are all about letting us know it is there and he offers advice on how to get it.)
It's true, nothing wrong with that at all. Beneficial it might be, but that depends on what one wants from the training.
Hi I'm going to offer an alternative interpretation / perspective Soke has developed to the point where he's zero. By which I mean he has developed many strengths and is able to oscillate between them according to the situation It's very difficult to discern what he's doing and as a result unless you've trained with him very regularly for a long time it's unlikely that you'll be able to perceive the full combination of factors that he's applying. The power is in the combination. So I think we all agree that for most of us just training with him is not a good idea The ****enno are all developing towards this "point". To do this they are each working on specific aspects, developing certain strengths and removing habits etc. Naturally the things that they are working on are different from each other The best analogy that I can think of is that Soke is the center and the ****enno are orbiting around this point, spiraling in towards him If you live in Japan then it makes sense to find a great teacher and follow their trajectory towards Soke. If you show that you're not an **** and if you have potential then perhaps they will help you develop the strengths that they focused on before you came along However, if you don't live in Japan you can't do this because you won't have regular enough contact with your chosen teacher. Calling yourself deshi, getting a lot of his attention when you're together etc won't change this reality As a visitor if you train with all the ****enno (& get their help) then you have an opportunity to see several strengths being emphasized. You can, I believe, start to perceive a little of how Soke uses these in combination. Sort of triangulating between them - this is why I believe Soke advises us to train with them all It's quite traditional really, the senior students of Soke are obliged to help his more junior students as much as they can and students of Soke can train with all the shihan So you have a choice when you visit Japan A) Train with all the ****enno and the great teachers of the art and head home with a balanced set of skills to work on whilst away Or B) Train with one chosen teacher and spend your time away going deep into the particular aspects that they are emphasizing at the time of your visit Both are valid approaches, but in my experience people who take the 2nd approach run the risk of going too far in a particular direction. Veering off course if you like. This is particularly the case if one doesn't test your approach in a (semi)live environment
I'm not sure I agree. Guru Inosanto is in my mind the peak of what a martial arts master truly is and he is always learning and developing. I believe I'd learn just as quickly under him as any other who has been ranked by him. Why would Ninjutsu be different?
Inosanto and Hatsumi are two very different people. They seem to have very different approaches and agendas when it comes to disseminating martial arts skill and knowledge. One is pretty much universally respected and admired for his skill, openess and ability to inspire and create world class martial artists. The other one lives in Japan.
As far as I can see, some people think its different and some people don't. It depends on who you ask. They're right or wrong depending on their own skill level and history in training. But generally, Hatsumi indicates he's teaching to seniors only despite the fact that class is open to all grades.
Very good question and comparison. I think a large difference would be the intended audience and the best example I could actually think of is John Danaher in BJJ. By all accounts, he's got an amazing mind for BJJ but I have heard (admittedly secondhand) that his classes really tend to benefit those of a certain experience level and above. The reason being that he is teaching at a level that implies a basic understanding of the mechanical movements. I am sure that he is perfectly capable of reaching a white belt how to lock and armbar, execute a cross collar choke, etc. He chooses not to, because he wants to teach at a more advanced level. I am sure Hatsumi-sensei is entirely capable of teaching someone he took interest in from the ground up. Classes at Honbu are not when he chooses to do so, for whatever his reasons are. In short, Stephen Hawking could teach you arithmetic, but his time is much better spent on theoretical physics.
Think of it as a University Professor on physics teaching 11 year old kids mathematics...he can do it easily, but it is a real drop down and in all likelihood he cannot be arsed Now put an eleven year old in the physics class...........
I don't know how other great masters do things so difficult for me to compare Hatsumi-sensei is really focused on confusing his opponent and he never repeats himself. For high level practitioners the way he does this is very insightful He can control his opponent despite the fact that the structure of his movements is minimal (he's over 80) and each technique that he shows is uniquely tailored to the situation. So a beginner copying his movements, particularly given that the situation presented will be different to the one Hatsumi-sensei found himself in, is on a hiding to nothing And what Hanibal said
True. I've heard that Guru Inosanto runs through tech iques so fast at seminars that you really should have a good understanding of kali before you go to one of them. I do wonder if he teaches beginners? I know there's a judo red belt who only reaches kids now for instance. What you guys are saying is that Haatsumi is only interested in teaching the finer points to advanced students, which is fine I suppose. But then why do you have have high ranking students that can't actually do any Ninjutsu?
I get the impression that step one in the Bujinkan is being able to tell illusion from reality. If you can't (or more likely, prefer the illusion) you still get what you're really after. Those who are honestly looking for substance actually do find it, and those who are satisfied with fantasy get theirs too. At least that's the generous angle. Having seen some reality behind the illusions, I'm inclined to go with this explanation. The real paper tigers tend to lack substance entirely, and that's not what I see here.
So you train with your teacher the most, by definition, not Ishizuka sensei. I train with someone on the Ishizuka line. Can't give the name because he doesn't want to.
Noguchi Sensei, Nagato Sensei and Seno Sensei. And also the late Oguri Sensei. I like them all really but each for different reasons. Nagato Sensei said to me last trip 'old ne?' I think he meant in terms of years training, as we spoke about the '87 UK earlier in the week, which was when I first saw Soke et al. Noguchi seems to like doing the 'weird stuff' on me, I think he knows I get the feeling! And Seno Sensei is just so nice and kind and sometimes uses me as Uke and says my students have nice movement What's really worrying is that they always remember me. Just hope it is for good reasons and not because I have screwed up. And of course Soke, if for nothing more than the inspiration!
As long as i misunderstood the original question i'll add that i also train with Andrej Jansec, outside of Japan. He is a great martial artist and very knowledgeable about the Ryu.
Because they don't really go there to learn, or have any idea how to learn. Hatsumi is not teaching to the high ranking practitiners as well. He just doing some freewheeling against people who dont attack properly. Its really hard to learn anything his class. Grade is more of an indication of how many times you have been to japan and how many students you have brought with you the anything else. Its also interesting to see that in classes where teacher give away the most grades (Nagato, Noguchi, Shiraishi) the most students turn up. And in classes where there is almost no grading (Seno, Someya) but more basics and kata there are very little students compared to the former three. So grade in the BJK is not an indication of skill or knowledge. Its worthless paper good for using on the toilet.
Totally agree with pankeeki, Seno Sensei and Someya Sensei are the ones I train with because they are actually teaching you, I go to sokes because it would be disrespectful not to, he knows when you're in town lol
