Who do you train with?

For example, look at this video. This is what going to Ayase back in the day was like:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsiXyxNk75I"]Shiraishi Sensei Kihon Keiko 1 - YouTube[/ame]

 

The title of this thread is..."Who do you train with?" and the word train has been used a few times on this thread including in the analogy

But I feel I must respond to this for a few years ago before I rejoined the Bujinkan I was asked who I had trained with. I provided a list and then it was pointed out that I hadn't actually trained with them but just gone to seminars. OK a fair point (Semantics maybe) but a fair point.

But actualy for much of the time this is what exactly happens in Japan. People turn up and watch a class (Maybe Hatsumi or one of the other Shihan) and depending on what the shihan is teaching they try to copy what that Shihan is doing with little actual instruction (Depending on the Shihan of course) and then think they have learnt something.

To actually learn this art you need a teacher, someone who knows you, knows your skill level, what you can and cannot do, where you need to go and what you need to learn. Most people (Regardless of rank) are just faces in a crowd who visit once a year.

I went to Japan. I was just a face in a crowd, a nobody, not training with a Shihan just observing and having an experience. I think this is what PR is trying to say. Yes you can dojo hop, get an experience, take some photos, but you need a teacher that can see you and work with you on a regular basis, and take you from A to B and onto Z.

Of course theres nothing wrong in going to Japan and being a face in the crowd, but don't say your training with a Shihan unless you live there or visit a particular shihan on at least a yearly basis.

I just wish I had realised this thirty years ago.

 

This is my take on how it went down as well. After going to America Soke realized he couldn't correct everyone's basic mistakes but he could make it safer for those training far from him while giving them something beneficial.

 

My experience parallels PR's, for what it's worth. I arrived in Japan and trained at all of Soke's classes while also training with the ****enno and going to various classes outside of hombu.

When I found I couldn't do what Soke was showing it didn't bother me much. After all, I had just got there. I knew I had a lot of learning to do.

What concerned me was that I saw a lot of people who had been living in Japan years being unable to do what Soke was doing and also seeing some of the teachers there moving differently to Soke. I considered going back home and taking up something else but when I expressed my frustration to a good friend who was in Japan briefly at the time he suggested I go check out a specific teacher.

I went there and spent the first hour being corrected on the basic mechanics of a kick. I was receiving actual instruction and correction. And, like PR says, the rest is (well, in my case, somewhat boring) history.

 

I used train with Bern and Gary Giam. In St Helens, Merseyside. I would rate them very highly. Just for anyone interested...

 

I've done it as an annual visitor, my teacher, a more frequent annual visitor, did it further back, all the guys who's seminars I will attend these days have done it, PR and benkoya have showed their evolution.... Knowing bouli, his is a special case where he was pretty much forced by geography to become a student of a shihan. Jammy git! (its a great story)

So the question for an outsider is probably... why isn't the correct way that we have all done to one degree or another, but so many people have yet to discover, the offical explicit proper way handed over to all students from the start?

My guess is that Soke and the shihan value personal responsibility and the growth that comes from self discovery and that this is indeed part of the Japanese pysche and that it just ain't in the Western DNA. I don't think it is or was a money thing at all.

Couple this with PR's note on quality control and its easily understood tbh http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074496075&postcount=1

 

The ****enno, aren't the only shihan. If soke wa worried about having as much influence on the organisation as he could, he would definitely speak up more and be much more strict. As things stand, he's too old and there isn't enough time to try to fix everyone out there in Bujindom. Many Westerners can't do basics correctly because they don't know how the training progression works in traditional arts. Instead they focus on whatever the theme is, or what this teacher is showing this day, or what was happening in the small window they were in Japan.

How do you think the kid's who start off in Japan start learning? If it was anything like the way foreigners who visit do, the Japanese level would be just as crappy.

Fiefdoms where? Not the one's in America for example. People are welcome to their cultish followings, they trained hard and spent a lot of money and time to develop them. However, this has nothing to do with learning the actual arts.

You aren't their deshi, so why wouldn't they? Also, as for not training with certain people, did you ask why? Perhaps that gets back to personal relationships between the older students. Ego, personal prejudice, and other things unrelated to skill can often get in the way of one's learning. There are certain shihan that are more popular than others, and this affects how many people show up at their dojos or classes at hombu.

A lot squander the opportunity because they run around chasing whatever theme of the year, weird concept, popular misconception, or teacher who is popular at the moment. Some only "train with" Soke and therefore miss out, but the path is clear and well documented, the results that are possible as well. I used to think that being serious about training coming to Japan. Once I came and was exposed to the level of the Shihan as compared to the long term residents, I realize that geography was meaningless. Moving to Japan was just to get your foot in the door, just a prerequisite to learning correctly.
Another mistake people can make is to think training is linear and not circular. I know people who were around at the beginning of the bone who said they never needed to go to Japan because Soke had already show them enough material to work on for the rest of their lives. Even if what they thought he showed them was absolutely correct and they trained and it absolutely correctly, they missed the point that it was very basic and elementary. At the same techniques done in the intermediate way would be very different.

There have been garish visitors since the boom began. If you are serious about the arts, you should train seriously. There is only one way to do that, unless anyone can show proof that there alternative ways bear fruit.

You haven't shown any merits to your approach. Until you have tried the traditional way, you don't know what you're missing. There's no need to keep an open mind about something that is obviously flawed and I've yet to hear anyone who became a deshi of a shihan turn around and go back to dojo hopping and claiming that the latter was a better way to learn.

 

PR said, "A lot squander the opportunity because they run around chasing whatever theme of the year, weird concept, popular misconception, or teacher who is popular at the moment. Some only "train with" Soke and therefore miss out, but the path is clear and well documented, the results that are possible as well."

Just out of curiosity, what is clear and well documented? What results?

On the one hand, just for training martial arts in general I absolutely agree with you that having a single solid instructor's guidance is generally more effective than dojo hopping. This is true of just about every high level competitor in any art. Sure some fighters may eventually change camps or teams, but at that point it is more about strategy and training partners than developing skills.

But there's no objective non anecdotal proof that anything taught in the takamatsuden is effective against a resisting opponent.

So on the one hand while I agree in terms of general training methodology, I find it a little disingenuous to demand seeing proof that other methods of training bear fruit when your own hasn't exactly offered up any either.

That's kind of the core of the problem with ninjutsu in general, everybody talks about the right way to do things but nobody ever puts their (posterior) on the line.

 

Is that Peter white in that clip?

 

The people who have come before up till now are the proof. The arts themselves are the proof. If you are not a student of the arts and haven't experienced what they really feel or look like, you might worry about their efficacy. However, short of experiencing what the masters of them can do, you won't be able to just google it or check youtube to find out. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

You can either agree with what is being said or not, it doesn't really matter. Would the absence or presence of proof have any bearing on the argument?

There's never been a question whether you could progress or not? The question is, "Is there a way to make better progress?" and if you are actually hampering your progress by training in a certain way? Meaningful instruction is all fine and good but at what cost, and in what direction?

Funny nobody has asked what the heck are they doing in that video? Don't know why it takes so many moves to push a guy, why their stances are so awkward, and why they are afraid to look at the guy face to face.

 

PR said: "The people who have come before up till now are the proof. The arts themselves are the proof."

Why, because their lunge punching students fall over when they they perform a technique?

"Experience what the masters can do," is anecdotal evidence. It's the same tired pedantic drivel everyone who refuses to test their skills against a resisting opponent uses.

Kano was Japanese, had no problem with this. So were all of his original students. So was Mitsuyo Meada or the Gracie's he trained. None of these men were unbeatable or claimed to be, but they tested their skills against resisting opponents.

You're the one who mentioned the path to good ninjutsu was clear and well documented. If it was clear and well documented there would be evidence, not of the kool aid drinking anecdotal "cross hands with the master" kind, but objective real world, here is an example of it working against a resisting opponent kind.

Again, to be clear, you're the one who want to see an example of someone like Dunc's training method produce results. Point me to one single objective bit of evidence of Hatsumi or any of his original students dealing with a resisting opponent from outside their own organization...

Or keep throwing stones in glass houses. I mean, this is the ninjutsu forum, that's about as close to actually fighting as it gets around here.

 

Oh boy...

No, silly.

Yeah, as is...wait for it.

:happy: Kano, Gracie, Kimura. Don't you get tired of pulling those names out of your bag of real badness? You don't have to believe me, in fact you shouldn't. There, see how easy it was. I'm not trying to convince you because you have no clue nor the slightest urge to really find out. If you did, you wouldn't be complaining online. Many people have come to Japan(or the dojo for those who were already in Japan) and found out for themselves, especially in the old days. But I digress.

I've had my own personal experiences, as have many. However, to you they are all anecdotal. Now, if you really really really want to know the truth, there is only one way to find out what reality is and that is to experience it for yourself. Not saying you're too yellow to do that, but like many who make a fuss about ninjutsu online, you don't know what you're talking about. You only know what you've seen on youtube and that is not the Takamatsuden. If any of the Shihan ever make it to your neck of the woods, you might learn something by trying to attend whatever gathering they have. Otherwise, you are just blowing wind.

No, I'll be clear. I don't need to see an example, I already know that none are around(get it, that's why I made the challenge). What do you mean by evidence? Anything save a videotaped fight(sorry Sony wasn't a few decades earlier with their gadgets) will just be dismissed as anecdotal. It's okay though, enough people in the real world know their abilities that people poo pooing them online doesn't bother them.

Yeah, well we'll see you when you come to Japan. You're the one throwing stones and you don't even know where to aim. Good luck with that.

 

I don't train in Japan but my teacher does. He tends to stick with one teacher over there.

I don't really have a lot to add to this thread, but to try to get it back on track, though it's tempting to make jokes, I think there are groups of people who are serious about their training, and may not go to Japan but train with people who do.

Maybe to some people that's not good enough but, it's a martial art, if it can't be passed down correctly, ultimately I'm not sure it's worth anything.

 

Funny, I know. Why come to Japan if you want to learn a Japanese martial art? That's ludicrous right? Makes much more sense to talk smack about an art you don't do with people you don't know online.:banana:

 

You know what, I edited that right after I hit post. I have a tendency to joke about everything but people are serious about this topic and it's wrong to treat it lightly.

My competitive judo background, a Japanese art that takes a much more pragmatic approach to training and grading and skill levels, makes me a little skeptical of some of the claims in this forum.

But again, wrong of me to joke about going to Japan... Since the YouTube is so much better over there anyway.

 

I don't really care what people think(so I wasn't taking offence at your post-laughter is always good), it just seems odd that anyone would suggest you don't come to Japan to study a Japanese art, be it judo or anything else. If I was worried about what people thought, I never would've had the balls to move to another country, especially not to train in ninjutsu. I agree that a lot of what people call "training" is not very helpful or practical, but I also know that there is a lot that goes in inside these arts that people are unaware of.

It's just funny when people with no conception of the real arts of the Takamatsuden want to preach to those who do. It's not like they really care either way, they are just having a go. Which is fine and their prerogative, but at the end of the day it's just a bunch of wasted breath. I'm not here to change anyone's mind who thinks our arts are crap, it's better that more people don't try to increase the group 3 out in Bujindom. We've already got thousands of individuals worldwide who don't realise their potential in these arts so no need to try to grow things.

 

Actually there's no obstacle to becoming a world class judoka outside of Japan. I can see how it might be fun to train there, but at this point in time the training isn't any better there than anywhere else.

I said this in my introduction thread and I believe it, I think the Takamatsuden would have been better served if, instead of the art being promoted in the west by Stephen Hayes, it was done by someone more like Matsuyo Meada, promoting the art through fighting instead of everything but fighting. At the very least there would be less of a LARPing crowd.