Which Karate Style Would Do Best In MMA

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Plat, Oct 17, 2005.

  1. Plat

    Plat New Member

    So basically Karate would do well in striking (K1) but not so well in full contact sparring involving groundwork (UFC, Pride, etc)??...is it the style or is the fighters today?
  2. Pyro

    Pyro New Member

    I'd say it's more the fighters then the styles Plat. If you aren't trained full contact how are you going to compete in it against the best in the world? Also if it were me, I would not want to enter MMA without some seperate ground work or ground avoidance training. You might find a Karate that covers this depending on where you live, but I have not seen too many that have grappling that much outside of Renshinkan (sp?). Even then I would probably do something else for the ground game.
  3. Mufty

    Mufty New Member

    Mixed Martial Arts :- This is a great title for cage fighting.

    I am intregued with the MMA phenomenom. So began to research MMA and find out a bit about what it's all about. MMA provides a great sport, and has some really good fighters. I enjoy watching MMA matches and find it entertaining.

    The problem is that MMA is a great sport, and traditional Karate is not, therefore the question should be what Sport Karate would be best for MMA. By this I mean we should ask ourselves which rules of karate sport would best fit in with the rules of MMA.

    As any traditional martial arts has no concern with rules per sa. The rules surrounding MMA may not fit or sit well with Karate.

    What do you guys think about rules for sport against no rules for the real deal ????

  4. Pyro

    Pyro New Member

    There are so few rules in MMA these days that people that hide behind the rules thing are just using it as an excuse imo. Sure some things are a no-no that you can do in a real fight, but there is still so much open to use in MMA that if you fail it's because of you, not the rules.
  5. Haduken

    Haduken Valued Member

    not so sure about that pyro... imo i think that the wider knowledge and skill base that most traditional karate schools follow, would suit MMA better than the sports karate schools - this is because sports karate schools have become too adapted to the rules of the competitions they compete in... and in effect have become much more restricted and stylised. the irony is that traditional karate has the 'disadvantage' that it is not geared towards competition. And whilst you may mock those that say the 'rules' of MMA are restrictive, it is true - I am not diminishing the skills of most MMA fighters... i think they are phenomenal atheletes and fighters, and i love the sport - bt to be honest, the two are not comparable... traditional karateka are training for entirely different reasons and for an entirely different mindset. "train to fight 10 men for one round, not 1 man for ten rounds". However, I do feel that all the skill sets that are needed for the MMA scene lie within most traditional karate systems - the difference is in the mindset and intention of how those skills are trained
  6. Pyro

    Pyro New Member

    I wasn't really thinking of sports karate specifically when I posted. I don't care either way, sports or traditional, if people use the minimalist rules of MMA as an excuse to not do well in it I think they are kidding themselves. Sure the head of some TMA could whip some street punks, no questions there, but so could Wanderlei Sylva. The difference being that Wanderlei could probably whip that "grandmaster" also.

    I love TMAs, I also love MMA. I just find it laughable when TMAists use the few rules MMA have as a reason they could not do well in it when we all know the real reason is because they are weak, have never dont full contact training and have ZERO fitness (I am talking about Average Joe TMA here, there are many who don't fit this so don't say I am wrong blah blah blah).
  7. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    I get ****ed when TMAs cite the rules of MMA competitions to attempt to prove that MMA sucks. Of course those same people never spar and never train their "teh deadly" techniques.

    Pretty unrealistic if you ask me. How can anyone ever expect to handle ten aggressive guys well if you don't first learn how to handle one?

    Karate can hold it's own in a MMA match just as good as any style. Doesn't matter if it's Kyokushin, Shotokan, Goju, or whatever. The key is in perfecting form, sparring, conditioning: you know, all the stuff required to produce a good fighter.
  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    That's my opinion in a nutshell! Very nicely put!
  9. Haduken

    Haduken Valued Member

    it is a saying evil betty - and it is meant to relate to mindset, not literal! - and i thought that "Karate can hold it's own in a MMA match just as good as any style. Doesn't matter if it's Kyokushin, Shotokan, Goju, or whatever. The key is in perfecting form, sparring, conditioning: you know, all the stuff required to produce a good fighter." was exactly what i was trying to say aswell
  10. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    Could you further explain what that saying means then?

    I know that's what you were saying. That paragraph wasn't directed towards you, but was simply to show that I don't think Karate flat-out sucks despite my dissatisfaction with so many Karate schools/teachers.
  11. Haduken

    Haduken Valued Member

    well i am sure people may disagree with me, but from my point of view the saying is about adopting a mindset of survival rather than fighting.
  12. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    That's assuming that a) you are able to get away at all and b) you're not too worn out to run away. Besides, I think we agree on the main point.

    Yes, the pavement isn't as comfy a mat. However, isn't this more of a problem for the person on the receiving end?

    As for the friends argument, yes it's something that warrants consideration. However, they don't always have friends backing them up. The whole point of MMA as a style is to make you a flexible fighter who can adapt to the situation - if he's got mates, use your takedown defence and strikes to get away. If he's on his own, taking him to the floor (where most people don't know how to fight) becomes a viable option. Plus, if you've put him on the floor, there's no reason why you should have to stay there.

    This is true, but I don't really see how they could become any more effective for street confrontations than they are without making training either too dangerous or too compliant to be effective.

    Amen to that. I really have a hard time believing that anyone is so reliant on eye pokes, kicks to the groin and pulling hair that not being able to do these things really stops them from being able to fight. IMO it's just to cast some kind of doubt on the validity of MMA comps. I've heard some fairly decent arguments, such as the ones you've raised, but I really don't find that one plausible at all. IMHO, many martial arts instructors use condemnation of competition as an excuse to allow standards to slip and carry on reeling in the money.

    But answer me this question: apart from kyokushin and its offshoots, do most karate clubs do mostly live training including hard sparring? To me, style DOES matter, because the style you do will dictate to a large extent the way you train.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2005
  13. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    No, most Karate schools don't train live with hard sparring. That's why most Karate schools don't produce good fighters. My point is that all the different types of Karate can be effective in MMA, as long as they train properly for MMA. The problem isn't so much the techniques of the style as it is the philosophy and training methology. When researching Shotokan and its creator, it's not difficult to understand why we rarely see Shotokan Karateka who hold their own in MMA.
  14. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    "train to fight 10 men for one round, not 1 man for ten rounds".

    I'm confused.
  15. Plat

    Plat New Member

    "Karate can hold it's own in a MMA match just as good as any style. Doesn't matter if it's Kyokushin, Shotokan, Goju, or whatever. The key is in perfecting form, sparring, conditioning: you know, all the stuff required to produce a good fighter."

    How come we dont see them then? are they all training half-assed?

    Also, so Karate does not really have any ground game that could be the reason why it wont do so well in MMA but it would in K1...Karate + Judo combo could be great...
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2005
  16. Evil Betty

    Evil Betty Birdy, birdy birdy

    They're out there, you just have to look for them. I'll leave it to someone else to mention the kickass Karateka who can actually fight, as I can't remember any significant names myself.

    Ground game problem solved.
  17. Plat

    Plat New Member

    How about Karate + Ju Jitsu?
  18. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Andy Hug was an incredible fighter. His background was Kyokushin wasn't it?
  19. Tommy_P

    Tommy_P New Member

    Here's my problem with debates such as this, there's too much generalization. There are accusations that karate or traditional karate practitioners aren't good fighters and at the same time statements are made that MMA fighters can pretty much take on all comers. This is a generalization based on viewing some poor karate schools and at the same time viewing the "best of the best" in MMA on TV.
    There are bad schools of MMA just as there are bad in anything else whether it be Shotokan, Goju, or any other system. We don't see the best of the best on TV in traditional karate, it's not a sport in that respect. But we do see the best of MMA and not the lesser schools due to it not being as far reaching as karate has become. (yet)

    It's like a steak. A steak is a steak, it starts out as a good piece of meat. Now you can but that steak prepared at a fast food place and say it sucks or you can but that same steak at a fine restaurant and it can be the best steak you've ever had. Same meat from the same cow, just more care taken in one place than the other in preparation, some may never have known a steak can be so good in it's true form. You can also buy the steak and take it home and cook it yourself and maybe it's worse than both places.
    I see many people ridiculing (or thinking they are) karate much like the fast food steak when in actuality the true karate (steak) is at the fine restaurant (school).

    Then they take that steak (karate) and compare it to a chicken dish (MMA) and try to say the chicken is better. Both are food, yes, but different dishes all together, you can't compare them. If you did you'd have to take the meat from raw (the style) not after it's cooked from two different places (the real school (fine restaurant) and the more common school ( fast food joint).

  20. Jim West

    Jim West New Member

    You made mention of the late Count Dante (John Keehan). Love him or hate him he was pushing what we now call MMA way back in the 1960's. The traditionalists hated him for it as well. A Google search will give more info.

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