what would kano think of modern judo

Discussion in 'Judo' started by warren, Dec 29, 2003.

  1. warren

    warren Valued Member

    as a jiujitsu person myself i'm also interested in judo and aikido,the question i have is what do you people out there think kano's opinion of modern judo would be.
    i myself think he wouldn't be to impressed as it is to sport orientainted these days with out much thought to practical self defence and with out self defence can it maintain it's status as a martial way.
    having said that i would like to try judo myself so i mean no disrespect as i think it has a lot to offer, i did check out one club but was completely amazed at the lack of mat etiquette another thing i don't think kano would like
  2. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    You mean "Spinning Jigaro?"

    TAPOUT New Member

    i also think he would be amazed at how far the art has come and progressed
  4. Nerevar

    Nerevar A son of a mother

    Shocked, in every sense of the word, both positive and negative.
  5. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN New Member

    Well I don't think he would be impressed, but I don't think he would be too unhappy either.

    One thing he may be unhappy with is the way scores have been changed.

    Ippon was the ideal. Minor scores and decisions have come into being because 'winning is all' and these days we only have a 3 minute attention span, apparently.

    On the whole, his art still exists in its original form, he wouldn't be too unhappy. :)
  6. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    I think he'd be happily amazed at the size and organisation of it now.

    Although I wholely agree with Dexter as to the scoring, I also think he may be a bit concerned its to 'wrestley'.

  7. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    i think he'd love it.
    and he could make a fortune teaching it properly.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2004
  8. Jim

    Jim New Member

    I think he'd think the same as Musashi on Modern Kendo... 'Help, a worm is eating my brain!' - but it'd be in Japanese of course...
  9. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    not necessarily, he could speak perfect english and french. :p :D
  10. Jim

    Jim New Member

    Yeah, but I had expected that the worms had eaten that part so far... ;)
  11. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter


    Do you think Kano would have something to teach Judoka in this day and age?

    Opens a can of worms....... *groan* ;)

  12. Furikuchan

    Furikuchan New Member

    Kano did emphasize the sport aspect of judo, so he would first be amazed at the way the sport has progressed, and would probably marvel at all the new techniques we've come up with.
    Then he'd find out about all the politics that have arisen (especially in the US!) and go back into his grave.
    I mean, come on. We made the cat's paw and full behind-the-back grips illegal specifically because the French abused them at the 2002 World Championships. While bashing the french is a sport in and of itself, it's usually tried not to be as blatant.
  13. Jim

    Jim New Member

    Good one, Col. At this rate you'll get us stripped of our 'Mod' Tshirts! (And I was just getting used to mine, even though the 'e' is around the wrong way...)
  14. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Hey, I'm 'stimulating' conversation, Andy does it all the time ;)

    But seriously, I know a lot of BB's who don't even know where Judo comes from!!! They only know Kano because he's mentioned in Syd Hoare's A to Z of Judo (which they use to pass their gradings).

    As a sport, If Kano was suddenly here with us again, would there not be better sports coaches around now with the improvements in sports science. Although I think he'd most probably blow away most Judo SD coaches ;)

    You got a T-shirt, why didn't I get a T-shirt :(

  15. Jim

    Jim New Member

    Yeah, but Andy's a law unto himself... He and Mel share shoes.

    If Kano was suddenly here with us, I think I'd start repenting my sins...
  16. grimel

    grimel New Member

    I stopped judo because it was all sport oriented. The old combat side has been abandoned (if it wasn't for my original Isshin-ryu sensi I'd not have know judo had a combat side for many years). So, I'd have to say he'd freak out and pound the dog meat out of the head honchos.
  17. lwicks

    lwicks New Member


    "Pound the dog meat" Thats a great turn of phrase!

    I agree in ways, Judo has become almost entirely a sport in the western world at least, even in most places in Japan I would say.

    The sport aspect is a unique and wonderful aspect to Judo, but it is not the be all and end all. Kano-Sensei saw more in Judo than this, in particular I'll mention the physical education aspect.

    What seems to have been "lost in translation" are all the other aspects of Judo that are still part of the Kodokan. Kata, Science, Self-Defence, Philosophy, Medical, etc, ETc.

    I personally would love to see some of these things resurected.

    That said, it is not for everyone, so I would not be happy to see things go to far to the other side where Judo becomes overly non-practical.
    By this I would cite Karate & JuJitsu as examples. (which is bound to start a flame war!)
    Much of what I have seen taught across the world in JuJitsu lcubs and Karate Clubs is to be frank useless for a majority in a majority of situations.

    For example the throws taught in a many (not all okay!) of JuJitsu clubs are terrible and would not throw a yellow belt Judoka. As for the blocking and kicking stuff in Karate, would it work for most practitioners? WOuld Miss 16 year old black belt Karate player really be able to kick me hard enough in the head to put me on my butt?

    In Judo we have the advantage that we can train at 100% against another person fighting at 100%. Hence, we know that our techniques work in a "real"situation.
    I am sure most Judoka have thrown a friend in a play fight and been astounded at how easy it is. (as they had no real defence)

    So returning to the idea that we have lost our combat side, yes we have, but by the same token I think perhaps in reality we are better prepared for a real life situation than some of our contemporaries as we have used our skills on others, where a Karateka or JuJitsuka has not been able to do this as kicking someone full force is generally regarded as a bad thing :)

  18. lwicks

    lwicks New Member

    One more thing...

    As I have said on another site, after Yoshida beat Royce.

    On that site I said that it was not a fair fight. Royce was bound to lose, not because he was a lesser fighter or less taleted, but because he has not had the opportunity to train at the levels Yoshida has.

    Royce was/is the top of the BJJ tree, a tree that in real terms is very small. Also as I said in my last post, he did not have the opporunity to kick/punch/fight his training partners at 100%

    Yoshida was from Judo, the number of Judoka in Japan alone is larger than the number of Gracie JuJitsu/BJJ people worldwide, so the pool of talent is that much bigger. Also in Japan he had many top class/world class fighter to train with, Royce did not.

    Anyone who knows the Japanese qualification system will realise that Yoshida to be number one, would have had to fight/win agianst everyone in his city/area/prefecture then country. He had also competed internationally for a number of years.

    So... how does this relate to the discussion about the loss of combat in Judo?

    Well... the reason Yoshida beat Royce (IMHO) is that Yoshida had had more experience of real fights than Royce. Yoshida had been in "combat" for a long time against players of (nearly) his level.
    Royce on the other hand had not, the level of most people he had fought was far below his very high level. Just watch the early UFC's to see what I mean.

    Judoka although not being told they are in "combat" situations are IMHO again in a much more realistic combat training environment than our peers in other arts.
    So although we don't "appear" to be combat oreinted,perhaps we really are?

  19. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    Lance, you have set yourself up for some flack with your 2 posts and I'm surprised you haven't received much response. May be you need to start a new thread(s)?

    I'd make a couple of points. There are quite a few "hard" men of karate who work as professional security out there who would challenge your comments about applicability of their MA, for example Terry O'Neil and the late Gary Spiers (a Kiwi legend). Also, if you've mixed in the jujitsu circles you would know that most senior jujitsu instructors hold Dan grade judo qualifications so I am sure the basics they teach should mean their students could hold their own in a judo environment. 10-20 years back when these guys started in MA jujitsu was not as widespread as it is now and they often started in judo and as their interest grew, possibly put off by the sports emphasis, they started learning jujitsu. Try starting a thread on the jujitsu forum.

    As for Yoshida vs Gracie, see thread -


    The later posts discuss the drawn re-match that took place at the New year. Although I do not share all their views the MMA guys would again have a lot to say regarding who was the all round better fighter with more of a will to win. In one of my posts I state myself that IMO judo can hold its own against BJJ, but in an MMA environment I'm not so sure. Yoshida has only had 4 MMA fights and his record is 2 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, so its not that great.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2004
  20. DexterTCN

    DexterTCN New Member

    Against what quality of opposition?

    Club, regional, national, international or world?

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