Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by jordanblythe104, Feb 7, 2012.
am I missing something ?
Do British martial arts exist?
Catch wrestling is the biggest example, although it was heavily influenced by other martial arts and its pretty much dying out now, which is unfortunate as it is highly regarded and has proven its self to be as effective as the other major grappling arts time and time again. boxing by the same token, certainly wasn't native here but we have had quiet an impact on it over the years. there are also many old folk style variations of wrestling that come from saxon and celtic culture, backhold wrestling, lancashire wrestling things like that. would hazard a guess that there is probably a fair amount of stuff in the historical/medieval weaponry type martial arts that came from the british isles. Oh and there's bartitsu, traditional Japanese jiu jitsu re-imagined for the Victorian gentleman.
how many people would describe russian martial arts as western ?
Sambo, Russian fist fighting, Systema and the various forms of folk wrestling.
Yep, both living lineage (various wrestling methods, etc. as Tout Prêt 1888 described) and revivals of historical methods, as detailed here -
Tout Prêt 1888, Bartitsu was rather more than trad. Japanese jujutsu re-imagined for Victorian gentry - it was basically cross-training between several ko-ryu jujutsu systems, British boxing, kickboxing and the Vigny method of stick fighting.
Only to the extent that Russia itself can be considered Western. I would say that some of the 20th century USSR developments (various Sambo sub-systems, Systema etc.) represent a Western (or at least Western/scientific/experimental) approach to both traditional Russian and some Asian styles.
sounds allot cooler than id ever given it credit for being.
yea iv always considered Sambo, speaking in a broad general sense, to be the missing link between the more fluid, position before submission eastern approach to grappling and the more smash mouth, catch as catch can approach of the western grappling arts.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npanqd4thCE"]Cornish Wrestling - Tradition, History & Heritage - Cawley Champions - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXsgnrXhjs8"]Wrestling - Cumberland and Westmorland style - YouTube[/ame]
Lancashire (catch) wrestling
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m412WS8Foj4&feature=related"]tommy heyes (Lancashire catch as catch can wrestling) part2 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyqHc_gNQGM"]Light pugilism sparring Round 1 - YouTube[/ame]
Really? The rules of Sambo and Judo (which Sambo is descended from) are much closer to CACC than BJJ. They all utilise pinning and riding. Also don't forget that Judo was heavily influenced by CACC, indeed many first and second generation Judoka were accomplished catch wrestlers.
Irish Stick Fighting with the Bata/Blackthorn.
I can't believe we got to page three without mentioning this:
--Charlie MacKenzie, So I Married an Axe Murderer
I didnt mention bjj lol ? because I said eastern martial arts seem to take a more fluid, position first approach ? well I can see what you mean, and Judo's current lack of emphasis on ground work during competition only makes the comparison seem more accurate, because any submissions or pins need to be done as quickly as possible, But I still see eastern martial arts as more fitting that description. Even Judo its self tends to be less aggressive on the ground than catch, the pins are more orientated to winning the match or subduing an attacker by controlling them in self defence terms, pins in catch wrestling appear more to be about hurting the guy. Although interestingly the Judo clubs I trained at the older guys always new some really dirty and vicious tricks for putting on the pain when holding someone down, and there's a good chance that many of them have wrestling experience as well so these things go around in circles.
On the contrary, CACC is enjoying a revival. It was like virtuoso guitar music, when it stopped being popular here it carved out a niche for itself in Japan Now the Shooto and Pancrase trained guys like Paulson and Barnett are passing it on, and the coaches from Japan such as Robinson are reviving it in the west.
With Josh hitting the big time again and Melanson as the submission coach at Xtreme Couture now, we'll be seeing a lot more catch in the UFC.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qC3kfky_h6c&feature=related"]Josh Barnett: Punishing Rides - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8InZp2aTTik&feature=related"]Fujiwara Submission Master Clinic - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_B7Wd4LF28"]4 Catch Wrestling Moves - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq0OrVgEFs4"]Grovit Wrestling Front Face Lock - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGlLGc8zTbc"]Neil Melanson Grappling System part one.avi - YouTube[/ame]
mmmmmm im sceptical, its had its bursts of new life before from when mma first started coming out of japan to fighters like sakuraba till present and none of that ever really managed to translate into it becoming a wide spread martial art again. The interest is certainly there in a very big way, you here people on forums all the time saying I would do catch wrestling if I could but no one is teaching it so I do something else. The old guard seems more concerned about arguing over lineage or just doesn't have the will or money to stage a proper fight back against BJJ's strangle holed. Don't get me wrong its certainly not dead as you say there are plenty of fighters to this day with allot of knowledge of the style kicking around, a few people carving out a living doing seminars, probably even the odd class in an mma gym that can legitimately claim to be teaching catch wrestling but all that aint really a come back when you consider the amount of people interested in it that have no way of training in it. In my opinion it will be reduced to something western historical martial artists attempt to recreate in 20 years or so.
Side Note: watched that Billy Robinson video earlier, even at that age walking around with a Cain he is one scary guy. If tough had a voice it would sound like that.
would be great to see anything new in the ufc these days to be honest, anyone ever herd of a leglock ?
Wow i never knew this stuff existed. I was expecting things like knight fighting and horse riding.
then again a knight back then probably did wrestling... i dunno.
Interesting stuff though, thanks guys
yep its incredibly interesting but also incredibly sad, hate too sound too nationalistic but we really have let our martial heritage go to the dogs in Britain when it comes to grappling. But as long as there's still good friendly people out there willing to impart the knowledge of how to choke people unconscious and bend bones in ways there not supposed to go who really cares where there from or what culture the art they teach originated in .
That's because we became really good at massed rifle fire
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