Weapons of Finesse Amazingly enough Cudgel, I just re-read an email I had sent to John Clements of the ARMA in which i wrote: John Clements: “I understand that you have likely encountered as I have a lot of rubbish claims revolving around Jap blades and ignorant claims re medieval ones, but this article is not the place to address it---or at the least, the paragraph you used does not do so sufficiently yet distract the reader in the process. “ Anthony Shore: John…this is precisely the entire point of the article…to refute the rubbish claims of Japanese blades and the ignorant claims of Medieval/Renaissance weapons. The point was, assertions have been made that this was a massively heavy weapon when we know it was not, that the Europeans did not possess the capability to make lightweight steel weapons as some folks think that only modern steel manufacturing techniques can do so. That the Japanese were not the only people on the planet to work with techniques that involved multilayered and folded steels and, finally that this was a weapon of finesse and skill, not a big metal club with a point. All of these points I feel I made extremely well with the data I presented, in the format I presented it. There you have it. The point I was trying to make comparing Japanese and Scottish was simply in regards to how quickly the weapon could be wielded. The japanese blade by virtue of being anywere between 3-5 lbs lighter than the scotty will naturally be the faster blade. Each weapon in it's own right requires a fair bit of "finesse" in handling, but! the fact that the katana is a lighter weapon and used in a different style, enables it to be used to attack at a much faster rate. Anthony
Hmmm, exactly what do you mean by greatswords? I define a greatsword as somthing bigger than the longsword (at least 1,4m long) If that's what we're discussing (or if claymores were much heavier than italian and german longswords) I can agree that the katana will be the fastest weapon, and frankly I find it very hard to draw similarities between zweihenders/greatswords and the relatively short katanas. If you're discussing longswords, then I do not agree that the katana nessecarily is any faster (or slower) -only a bit shorter, and with less handprotection Do there exist any combat manuals for greatswords? -I haven't seen any.
My sword is better than your sword Oh gods...here we go with the "my katana is superior to your European sword" debate again...ok, lets nip this in the bud shall we? first off, I believe I discussed the whole "fold forging" thing...not only were the Japanese not the first to be utilizing that technolgy but, the Vikings were doing it a full 200 years prior to the Japanese. http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm http://www.vikingsword.com/serpent.html Second, as has also been discussed, the Europeans did not construct swords that were simply big iron bars with an edge and a point. Firstly, Iron does not hold an edge very well and tends to be very heavy...you attribute the skills of the European smiths as being capable of pounding out rough hewn iron blades when if you look at European weapons production in the middle ages, there were entire towns and villages (yes, I am quoting my own work) whos only industry was production of weapons and armor. Solingen and Passau in Germany, Toledo Spain... The Vikings were working with Pattern Welded steel in the 6th Century A.D. and before that, the Celts...examples of low grade steel could be found througout Europe as early as 700 years B.C. http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html http://www.galatia.com/~fer/sword/mishina/lecture.html Now, while we all fully admit that the Japanese blades are excellent cutting tools, there are limitations to their durability and cutting power...as I said, very good at "slicing" through flesh...will meet moderate resistance cutting thorugh bone and will find a fair degree of difficulty cutting through Japanese armor and damn near impossible without damaging the blade when trying to cut through European armor. The Japanese blades are not magic, they are steel and will behave as such. You cannot compare European combat technique and blades with Japanese...these are distinctly different weapons with equally distinct styles of use, hell! you cant even compare European weapons with themselves....the Broadsword is used in a different manner than the greatsword, is used differently than the ******* sword, is used diffenently than the sabre, the rapier, the Russian Kidjal <SP?>. This does not make Japanese blades or styles any more superior to European styles and blades... and as far as construction goes...again, the Katana is very good at what it does and for what it was designed to do...Slashing "draw" cuts. The fold forge method is hardly unique to Japan and as stated, other cultures were doing similar things hundreds of years before Japan began using this method. Most European blades were designed for cutting and/or thrusting but not the same way the Japanes blades were except for those with curved blades...very good for "slashing". If you are to compare weapons, compare them within their own class, not with a weapon that is ethnographically and geographically distinct from the one you are comparing it to. I am not entirely certain where you get your information that the greatsword and the like (including the claymore, longsword, etc...) were nothing more than bludgeons with points but, you have been grossly misinformed. Please refer to an article by Hank Reinhardt on this subject. http://www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htm Also: http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm
Stolenbjorn, I'm not sure if that was meant for me but I will comment anyway. By Greatswords I meant the class for sword applied to the Zweihander and similar...larger "two handed" weapons. The only similarities involved were in respects to the concept of "weapons of finesse"...as stated, each weapon, in its own right, holds a certain amount of "finesse" to wield...the greatsword class of weapon was NOT NOT NOT a lumbering bludgeon with a point that it is so frequently ascribed...these people come off as thinking that ONLY the Japanese could produce blades of ANY intrinsic value or merrit. This is simply NOT true. What is true is that the Japanese were isolated from pretty much the rest of the world and did not have the "arms race" that was happening in the European countries...the Japanese did not have 3-4 dozen countries influencing each other in regards to culture, styles of fighting, closely guarded methods of bladesmithing that were passed on from master to apprencitce in secret. What the Japanese had was a culture with very little outside influence with weapons that were crafted by the religious sects and were fairly well documented. As for greatsword manuals...the Royal Armourers at Leeds said in a peice done for the History Channel that they had found a "greatsword" manual in their vaults and had choreographed a fight sequence from the plate by plate "positions" in the book. You may want to talk to them about it. Other than that, I really cant say as I am not really up on my fight manuals these days.
ONe the topic of greatsword manuals I was under the impression that the German Fechter Bucher were for larger twohanded longswords...one of the reaons ive been studying it. ANd even if not it woulndt be taht hard to apply the various diferent Manulas to Zweihander use, u can use spear, pollaxe and longswords techniques qith m which are strangly enough very simlar to one another espcially halfswording with longsword and the use of the pollaxe. And I pesonally class anything thing that is ,less than chest high as a longsword and less than hip high a single handed sword.
Here is an absolutely smashing article on "Oakeschott Typology" http://www.ejmas.com/jwma/jwmaframe.htm
Sword methods of construction I found this in a simple web search that "anyone" could have found...including those bent on believing the superiority of the Japanese swordsmiths and their product and that the Europeans were incapable of producing anything more complex than a sharpened bar of iron. Before you make such statements...be sure you have done the homework and have not simply gone on "what you heard from your sensei" or what "seems right" or from a biased "only the Japanese could do it" point of view. and if you have ever seen any pix from the Landeszeughaus in Graz Austria...you would not make such statements at all. http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/armor/atli/index.htm
Good now I know where to look up Oakeschott Typology. Lol You said smashing..... and Ive read that article on Anvilfire many a time.
Umm, no. The US always had a technological advantage over the Japanese. We sold them the Zero for goodness sakes. The P-38 and other such craft had ratios of 3 to 1 (I think that's the Corrsair's ratio though). Anyways. I think we might have been even in our naval ships, but I stess the word might. The Japanese had constucted larger ships then were allowed (some consession everyone agreed to). To answer the original question, I like Zweihanders. My favorite is a Naganata or Doa though they aren't actually swords.
Flexibility vs. resiliency You confuse flexibility with resiliencey...The outer shell of the Katana is a higher carbon content and is very stiff...that would present a problem with the blade being brittle and breakable...the outer shell is wrapped around a softer inner core of high grade iron or lower grade steel and this gives the blade "resiliency" not flexibilty...Flexibility would mean you would be able to "bend" the blade of the Katana to a certain point and it would return to true. Resiliency is the ability of the blade to absorb shock without breaking. If you think you can bend a 1/4 inch thick at the spine Katana and have it return to true, even a slight bend...please do try and let me know the results. I would be most impressed if you were able to do it. Now, on to comparing Katanas with Greatsword and other of it's class...why would you do such a thing...that's sort of like comparing a cadillac with a porche and stating that the porche is superior to the cadillac because it has better handling in corners at 60 miles per hour...there is no comparrison to the Kat and any European sword let alone the European greatsword class of weapon...each has it's own distinctive style and use...the Greatswords were not designed for "slashing" draw cuts, they were designed for defending againts pole arms and for dealing with plate armour...the greatsword blades were stiffer than their smaller cousins as they were designed for "thrusting" as well as cutting. Greatswords are excellent for disabling a line of pikemen as well as for defending relatively enclosed areas like archways and castle gates because of the versatility of the way the weapon can be used...I would like to see you use a Katana to make an attack with the blade, invert the weapon and smash the the pommel, choke up on the ricasso and use as a staff and in turn as a spear...very versatile weapons these were..can your beloved Katana do all that? NO! your Katana was designed to make very good slashing draw cuts and that was about it. now, for the Ninja-to! There is no, I repeat, NO! historical evidence to support the straight bladed Ninja sword...if you can produce such, please do, I will be willing to be corrected if you can find information from at least 2 reputable sources.
Question...you've sparred with boxers! what exactly were you doing? were you boxing with them? or where you letting them use boxing technique which involves connection only with the hands and footwork for positioning while you used your feet to kick them? I'm pretty sure if you were limited to interaction with a boxer on their terms...i.e. Marquis of Queensbury rules boxing...i'm pretty sure you would get your butt whopped big time. Sparring with boxers who "only" know boxing and fighting them with an art where you are allowed to kick is not much of a comparrison. If you want to fight with boxers...box with them. if you want to fight with "kick" boxers...then you have something to say about your art vs. their art. And anyone who gives up on their argument by "challenging a duel" show a very large amount of immaturity.
Black vs. white ninja This would be especially true since in Japanese culture, white is the color of death. here is a really good site for all things relating to the Japanese sword, including some information on the "mythical" Ninjato sword...which seems to be generally regarded as a product of Hollywood fiction and has no real basis in history. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
--->Again, there is no documented evidence of the straigh bladed "ninja" sword, it was a product of the "kung Fu" movies of the 70's and 80's....if they were carrying any swords at all it was a standard kat which can be worn from the back and drawn easily but, that was not a common thing either for any sword as far as I know, heck! even in the movie Conan the Barbarian, when they kidnapped the princess from the temple, Conan removed the sword strapped to his back and affixed it to his side before hand.
I don't know very much about how swords are made, but I feel I have to come in to defend the western swords. Both the eastern and western swords developed the way they did because of how warfare developed in their respective cultures. I therefore don't see how western swords can be considered inferior or ineffective, since they were obviously developed and used successfully for their purpose. I read somewhere that as soon as you say "it's a well known fact", you'll be unable to back it up. Whenever I see actual weapons historians talk about this topic, I see no evidence or argument that European swords were just glorified meat cleavers. Having said that, I'm not saying that European swords are necessarily superior to those used by the Japanese. People didn't develop these weapons for duelling, they developed them for war with a specific purpose in mind. Comparing a katana against a western sword just because they're both bladed weapons is surely like comparing an interceptor to a bomber.
its not the sword but the skill of the weilder. all weapons are the same in essence, heavy weapons light weapons. no difference. a skilled swordsman can fight with a blade of grass.
I think all parties should try to respect eachother. When someone posts that they kick ass and everybody else (and their equipment) suck, I think that tells more about the poster than anything else. It would be interresting if mr. Soete-tsuki could cough up some hard evidence for his rather rash and if I might say so totally unfounded fables. It will be fun to tear his "evidence" apart
