Do you feel that a person with a high ranking black belt in one style should carry that rank into another similar style. Example. black belt A has a 4th dan in Tae Kwon Do and moves and goes into a Tang Soo Do school. Should they be given the same rank in that school? If not, what rank do you give them if any? Another perspective - what if you were that person? Would you want to wear the rank even though some of the forms are different and you would outrank most if not all of the students? If you don't wear that rank do you think you would be wasting your time starting from a lower rank and building back up?
Theres a guy who joined our Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan class who was a blue belt in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. TKD Moo Duk Kwan started when high ranking Tang Soo Do student jumped ship to the new TKD association in the 50's. They used all the same Moo Duk Kwan forms, although with minor changes. He trained under the same kwan, so i think the master let him continue.
Personally, I think if you change to any new style, regardless of how similar it is to your old one, you start at the beginning. White belt. If it is a similar style, you will already have a strong base understanding and you will probably move up the ranks a bit faster than normal. I am in that situation myself now. But I think it would be disrespectful to come into a new style and be any other rank besides the lowest one. I was 2nd kyu in my old style, and im happy with starting over. If I do move up fast I will feel bad about surpasing some of the people that were there before me, but such is life. If you are already experienced in something similar, IMO you should start at the beginning, and if you work hard and adapt you will move up fast.
IMO, it's back to a low grade. You notice that I didn't say 'White Belt'. That was because it is up to the new instructor to watch you in training and guage what level you are at - after all, the instructors decision is what it's all about at the end of the day. If you are good enough, you should swiftly progress up the ranks. Cheers.
I think this is a bad idea. If I was a 6th kyu, and a new person came to class that was say a 4th kyu in another style. Then after a week of obeservation my instructor awarded them a 5th kyu and they were now my senior Id be pretty unhappy. But I think it would be different if the person started off as the lowest rank and worked their way up. Like we both said johhny, if theyre good enough they will move up in the ranks fast. But rank has more to do with the ability to perform certain moves, its seniority and respect and an understanding of the style. If rank is so important to someone that they cant start at the beginning when trying a new style, I dont think theyre really much of a Martial Artist.
I'm sure most people are willing to restart, but if the instructor assess them and only moves then back 1 gup, then you can blame the student. **** I think in the case I mentioned, the student is the best in the class, deserves to be at the level he is at. His previous style and his current one were practically the same. Although I do agree, start from the beginning if the styles are different, or if only similar, a lower rank - according to the instructors opinions.
Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo are not the same thing. They have similar forms and similar moves but that is it. That would be like adding a few joint locks to taekwondo and calling it hapkido.(which sadly alot of people do.) I believe that if they are just interested in doing a little cross training and not neccessarily belting in my system I would let them do what ever they felt comfortable with. But if they were coming in to learn just like any other student and was going to attend class regularly I would require them to start over. Someone with a good base in any martial art shouldn't take to long to move up in another style. You just have to learn to do things the way that style requires.
Interesting. So, in my example you think the 3rd degree black belt should restart at white belt and climb through the ranks again? One of the reasons I ask is because many of the Masters that started teh Kukkiwon were Tang Soo Do masters, yet they actually got promoted when they started the Kukkiwon. Promoted in TKD!! heh. So, not only did they keep their rank from one system to another, they got a promotion. I have hear dof the Kukkiwon doing the opposite too. My instructor is a 7th dan in Tang Soo Do - he has been in teh martial arts full time since 1959. When he joined the Kukkiwon they made him take a 5th dan. I guess I just wonder about it all. BTW he is not Korean, although he did receive his 7th dan in Korea.
If you just change schools with in the same style that is a totally different story. I think if you go from a ITF school to a WTF school you should be tested to retain your rank. If you pass you retain it and start learning the new forms if not you get placed where the instructor feels you belong.
I agree, but Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan are very similar, if not almost the same, at least according to the student who has now practiced in both. They were both Moo Duk Kwan, so training the requirments were the same.
This all just highlights to me the pitfalls of belt systems. If person A wishes to train in system X why not just get on with the training and forget silly things like a strip of cloth? If he gets good enough to teach that system - call him an Instructor. Until then -don't. Anything else is driven by ego, politics & money.
I dont blame the student, I blame the instructor. I think thats a dig at the people who have been there training for a year or two in that style...I left my ownt style and came back after two years and I started over at white belt. And I would not have expected anything else. When it comes to 3rd Dans and 4th Dans I still think they should start over. If they have mastered on style they will have no problem testing and moving up in another. Again, I have no problem with someone moving up extremely fast. For example, I would have the person who is a 3rd Dan in one style, train in the new style as a white belt and train untill the instructor felt they were ready for the 2nd kyu test. I dont see anythign wrong with that. But I still think they need to put in their time as a white belt. I dont know about the situation with extremely similar style though. I think id stick with my opinion of having them start out at the base and test for whatever rank the instructor felt he/she deserved. EDIT: Yoda: Belts/Rank is a good way to subdivide people for competitions though...
Let say someone moves from TKD-WTF school A to TKD-WTF school B, theu would still move above all the students. The fact is, if there good enough and know all the requirments to be at rank _____, let them be at rank ______. btw, i wouldn't agree with Yoda more.
Yes...but they are from the same style. To me, there is a difference. Why shouldnt they have to put in some time and then test for it?
I have studied both Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan - very similar. Of course TKD/MDK was back in the mid 80's. They were just getting into the idea of olympic sparring. <sigh> I agree that the belt system is a poor system. Seniority and time in was all that used to be necessary, however if a person didn't pull their own tehy were expelled from the school. Not so now. Please keep the discussion going - very good stuff here.
Don't forget beer, sometimes it's driven by beer All joking aside, if you do go to begin training in a new style, why do you deserve to carry your other rank over? IE) You are a black belt in TKD, and decide to study judo. The black belt signifies a level of proficiency in TKD and no one can take that away from you, however you do not have that level (yet) in judo. Why not start at the beginning and develop a good base. To me that's just good training habits. Empty your cup so to speak, I hate cliches, but that's the truth. To go with Andy Caps example, the TSD masters that started the KKW, well they started the KKW, why not give themselves rank, it's done all the time when people start a new organization or style. I know I'm going to name my self grand puhba of Artikon-Fu-Do I can't really explain why this happened, since I don't know, but that is an idea why it happened since they were the founders of KKW, back then it offered a little more credability I think, rather than someone doing it now and giving themselves a 10th degree. For the people transferring over nowadays, I believe the KKW has a stipulation that says high ranking practioners of other arts can make the transition however they will be only graded as a 5th dan instead of current rank. Reason being I believe is once you do reach 5th dan, much of the progression is not only on skill level, but what you have done for the art to progress/help it develop.
-I don't go as far as Yoda on this one because I do feel there is value to the belt system when it's done correctly (though far too amny do abuse it). However, I do feel that for the most part, what is being discussed here is about ego and the "pecking order". I think the belt system is best used like grades within school. Beginning with elementary (beginner levels), then to middle school (intermediate) and then high school (advanced). Dans (in systems that use them) are akin to the University level. -I do believe there should be testing of anyone entering a new school, even if they are from the same system, as there will be differences in quality between schools. When a black belt comes in to my school, I recognize they are a black belt in that system (I didn't award them that rank, I don't see it as my right to take it away). OTOH, if they want to get their black belt from us, they have to go through the same training and testing process as anyone else. We also have a policy that if you do not train for six months or more, you are not at black belt levels, and need to re-test (no fees involved). We do this with our own people, and we use it with outside black belts coming in. -Another factor to consider is if you put white belts on an experienced practitioner, what does this do the confidencw of the other beginners in your classes? Even when you preframe it, they will compare themselves to someone who is far more experienced than they are and will often judge themselves far too harshly as incompetent. Even though they may in reality be doing fine for their level.(My school tends to attract the perfectionist-type, over-acheivers) -Finally, if the import black belt can really do the things in our cirriculum to a high level, then I am not really giving him or her much value by having then re-hash everything. They came to our school to learn and grow and I won't hamper that just to coddle the egos of some of my existing student's image of a pecking order. Now, if they want to enter our rank structure and are not up to level, we take them from where they are in our cirriculum and move them up from there (Ex. they were first dan ta their old school, but they are about blue or brown in ours, they move up to that level and go from there).
I really like KwanJang's approach. If you look at the black belts as University degrees, it makes sense that I can get some 'credit' for what I've already studied, and apply it towards another degree. But it would be silly for me to walk into some university and say, 'Hey, guys! I have a degree in physics, and I want to study at your school now, but I expect you to give me a degree in English Literature.' If I want a degree in English Lit., I need to study some serious Shakespeare, and if I want to switch from TKD to Karate, I better study my karate, no matter how many belts I have in TKD. At the same time, some of the basics overlap significantly (basic stances, kicks, speed/stamina/strength training, balance, sparring experience and skills). In the 'college' comparison, this would be just like getting some credit towards a new degree because both programs require I take a foreign language. So, I might not start out as a freshman (whitebelt) when I go for a second college degree. If your school uses belts, they probably use them to divide students by ability level (for partner drills, sparring, competition, training, etc), or to divide students by responsibility level (teaching brand new students, teaching intermediate students, etc.). It would be up to the Instructor to decide where the new student should start, based on his past experience and current skill level. I would see nothing wrong with starting a red stripe in Kenpo as a blue belt in TKD (this happened just recently at my school), but I personally would not want an "automatic pass" for a black belt across distinct styles. I guess my punchline is: Transfer black belts: No Start at something other than white belt based on past experience: possibly; however, that decision should be made by the Instructor, and NOT the student.
The thing about transfering between styles is that you will always have a leg up on someone who is brand spanking new to martial arts. You already have the experience in the MA classroom and have already learned how to pick up things, so the progression should naturally be a little bit quicker. I think though it really is important to understand as someone crosstraining is that there are different ways of execution of techniques, and one should always be openminded when trying something new instead of saying "well I'm a BB in this style and that's not how we do it" Take the new experience add it to your own and decide what's best.
You don't. Judo is too disimilar. But Karate, TSD, TKD etc all have so many similarities it's ridiculous
