Another of the issues I see from JKN Jey's post... that has also been weighing heavily on my mind. What rank should an instructor be before starting a school? My understanding from what I'd heard around the dojang was that students at ~brown belt or DBN could (with proper permissions) start up a club. But what happens after that?
I don't think it wise to put a rank requirement on teaching/ opening up a school. I think if a student shows a talent or even interest in teaching, there should be tools available (either WKSA generated or by private means) to encourage this. Now don't get me wrong I do believe all school owners should be BB's, I just dont think all BB's should be school owners. Now after being "selected" as a teacher, one should be fast tracked in positive teaching methods, curriculum understanding, business development, and other tools one would need to open and succesfully maintain a school of any size. Now the burden shouldnt be entirely on the student as it is now, nor should it be on WKSA. It should be shared and so should the profits or debts. Now Ive heard KJN( ok by now I hope yall know that unless I mention a KJN with their name, I mean KJN Barry when I refer to KJN) say that as long as someone follows his business planfor teaching at a martial art school they will be successful. I think as long as the new owner followed WKSA's plan, If for some reason it doesnt work the failed school owner should not be entirely resp. for debt incured (sp? it's late)
i would suggest not starting till you reach ksn (2nd dan) rank. as it takes min 4 years to get your 1st bb and 4 years to get from 2nd to 3rd dan, this should mean that you will allways be at least 1 rank above your higest student all the time. cutting down on rank confussion form begginer students and ego problems from others.
I will agree with Psbn Matt, That's what guideline I would have for myself anyway, the only exception would be if you were ready to test for your 2nd degree. Teaching is a great way to add depth to your knowledge and understanding. Though I can't imagine being ready to have my own school even in 3 years from now...hmm.
The consensus here about not allowing a BB to open a school unless being 2nd dahn (or nearly) is, in fact, a general *unwritten* rule (or guideline) with WKSA, AFAIK. That doesn't mean there aren't (or haven't been) exceptions, but you know what the word "guideline" means, so you don't need me to explain it... BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. The *fast-track* idea put forth by evil twin is good, but unfortunately it varies tremendously from dojang to dojang, instructor/master to instructor/master (I believe some use the term SWAT --Students With Aptitude for Teaching-- and once *qualified* for this group, you get all the attention & other sundry goodies). The part he mentioned about WKSA taking a larger (fiscal) responsibility, is NOT current policy AFAIK. As for starting up a club, I'm not sure if under BB is still allowed. At one point, when the assoc. was trying to grow, *special circumstances* were considered on a case-by-case scenario, but recently, WKSA has reworked it's licensing format to be more like a true franchise in regards to fees, etc. and unfortunately, I fear you shouldn't get your hopes up if you aren't already a BB. If you have begun the testing process, however, then it wouldn't hurt to merely inquire, given your present situation. Hope this helps, and GOOD LUCK!!
We're both JKNs. I've held the rank for two years, him for one. I got through wah gi and jahp ki before we left. Coyote's been taught johk bahng uh sool. The set we need an outside instructor for is the two-attacker set (ee in jee ahp sool?) I mentioned making the most of my time in training? Did SWAT, BBC, even Master's Club. There are archery ranges around here, we just need to schedule a time and budget the money. Knife throwing will have to wait until our house is built and we can build the target.
When we were bound for Australia (there were no KSW schools here before us) we approached Master Alex KJN and Master Harmon KJN on the subject since we did not want to stop practicing and developing in KuK Sool. We reasoned that by opening a school we would grow through instructing others and our club would act as a focal point for visiting KSW students, especially of more senior grades to help us progress our training in between visits abroad to other dojangs. Both Master Alex and Master Harmon have been very supportive and our club is growing (I keep forgetting Samonim's insistance that we are a club not a school since we do not own the dojang). My advice is go for it, our leadership are flexible and will take many factors into account in reaching a decision. But note that there are two of us (JKN Sophia is my wife), and I depend on her to do the administration and promotion of our club as I have a fill time career (which is a nuisance as it gets in the way of my development in KSW). Chris Kalli JKN www.kuksoolwonwa.com
you know, playing the devil's advocate so to speak and i am not suggesting what rank any one should be to operate a dojang, but i was once told that back in korea when kuk sa nim was teaching, he allowed no one under the rank of 4th degree to open a school. again, i am not saying that i agree or disagree with what rank he one time allowed instructors to go teach ( because i have known some um ... not so adequate teachers at higher ranks and some gifted teachers at lower ranks), it is just something i understood in a conversation once upon a time. the reasoning behind it made sense and i never questioned it due to it did not matter to me that much. i thought it was just an interesting point.
That is a good point, we are working towards a club first. Mine's the reverse situation. There are two of us JKNs as well, but he's the at-home father and I have a full time career. Thank you, sir, for the historical perspective. I am now in touch with an instructor, and much more comfortable with the plans we've discussed. I hope I've been clear that I intend to follow my teachers within the WKSA. As I've checked out what MA is available in my area, I've become even more aware of the importance of respect among martial artists. My religious training also has shown me how opposing concepts can arise from different traditions. While subjectively, one tradition can do things one way and another the other, that does not necessarily mean one is "wrong" and the other "right" from an objective perspective. I'm a fan of coexist.
Thank you, sir, for the historical perspective. I am now in touch with an instructor, and much more comfortable with the plans we've discussed. I hope I've been clear that I intend to follow my teachers within the WKSA. As I've checked out what MA is available in my area, I've become even more aware of the importance of respect among martial artists. My religious training also has shown me how opposing concepts can arise from different traditions. While subjectively, one tradition can do things one way and another the other, that does not necessarily mean one is "wrong" and the other "right" from an objective perspective. I'm a fan of .[/QUOTE] my apologies. i did not mean to strike a nerve with you. i misunderstood your post. i did not realize you were planning to open a dojang or had plans with an instructor or what have you. more power to you and the best of luck. i thought the post was a generalized discussion about the rank one should be before the wksa allowed them to open a school. i did not realize it was about plans you were making. i just thought it was an interesting topic on what was then and what was now as far as when someone was allowed to open their own school. i in no way intended to be condescending toward you in opening a dojang, i did not read your posts throughly i suppose. in fact, as i stated before, i have met some 1st and 2nd degree black belts that trained harder, studied harder, and made much finer instructors than their higher level counterparts. i hope if that is a venue you are looking at that you are very successful and find it very rewarding.
The story, and my openness to posting about it, have evolved since I started the thread in August. JyoKyoNym Jey hit the nerve at that time, by being not far behind his own instructor in a region where KS is scarce. I could picture the same thing happening to our club in a few years, if we weren't careful. In August, I didn't know how to get there from here. I'm not sure I "know" now, but at least the road's a little better marked. I appreciate inputs both at the general and specific level. It certainly is interesting to compare then with now. Thank you.
What the hey, I'm gonna go off-topic just to mention a possible error. :topic: AFAIK, in the RoK the gov't. dictates that a MA instructor be master level in order to operate a dojang (hence the term KJN [literally: director/principal -- Br. headmaster]). Just be aware that most other KMA organizations start master level at 4th dahn (this was a large part of the confusion that KSW Masters must own and/or operate a dojang). OK, now I've made my point. Good luck to you, ember & coyote. ~
I was a fairly new (42 year old) JKN when I started my first school and I did not find that it caused any problems. I promoted to 2nd dahn about the same time as my first students promoted to JKN so I was "one step ahead" However, I have since moved away and started again elswhere, having first found an instructor to take over the original club, so maybe I do not the full experience to come to a conclusion! I suppose it MAY be easier when you are that bit further ahead of your students as you have more to teach them and there is less chance of them feeling that they could learn more elsewhere. Having said that, at my original Dojahng (where I trained) one of the "students" actually outranked the school owner and this did not seem to present any problems. I think it depends upon the level of maturity. And while age does not necessarily bring maturity (!) it does make a difference. Remember, new students dont know a JKN from a KJN! It is only later that problems may occur. And maybe a 35 year old JKN would find it easier to create the right atmosphere of respect etc than an 18 year old Kyo Sa Nim? I think the reall answer to the question, when is the best time to start your own school? Is, "when you are ready!"
I think a 1st dan should be able to assist in class and run a class here or there. I also think that a black belt (1st dan) needs to “intern” for a while to learn how to run a school. In my experience, it takes at least a couple of years to learn (1) how to teach the curriculum in a decent way, (2) the paperwork/books side of the business, (3) experience in dealing with students, parents, mishaps, obstacles and so on. During this period of “interning” they need to be coached and guided by an experience instructor and school owner. So, considering the time and experience required, I’d say a person should probably be at the very least 3rd dan or so before opening a school, provided they have the background and experience. I don’t think anyone under black belt should even consider running a club or school ever.
